PPRuNe Forums - New RAAF Training Aircraft

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My bet is on the T6, simply cause it's cheaper - which is a crying shame and hardly an improvement on the PC9 - in some areas, less capable.
The RSAF allegedly approached the RAAF during their lead up to the acquisition of their PC21s and said something along the lines of "Hey, RAAFies, how about we buy a shed-load of PC21s for a good price and have one maintenance base at Pearce and a couple of sims - makes sense, huh?" And the RAAFies said, "Um, we need to take the requisite 15 YEARS to come up with an answer - can you wait for us?" No kidding, the PC9 replacement project has been in the works for just on 15 years - numerous "project teams" have all had their go on the project, spent countless hours researching, handed over to their replacements (corporate knowledge lost along the way...) and the result has been a big fat zero. I'm surprised Raytheon or Pilatus can even be bothered with us anymore. Bananas...

I'm sure they also made A LOT of trips to the USA and Europe to "collect data"

You laugh at the RFP being 1000 pages...the responses were more than 6000!

There had to be options for a second platform for BFTS, plus a non military location (e.g. Tamworth, West Sale etc) for ab initio training.

Team 21 - LockMart, Pilatus, Hawker Pacific - has offered the PC-21 and has modelled its offering on the Basic Wings Course scheme it conducts for Singapore at Pearce. General feeling is PC-21 has always been the RAAF's favoured platform, and there would be advantages in sharing sustainment and facilities with the Singas at Pearce. Questions about whether it is a bit too sporty for for screening/BFTS are valid, although its FCS and engine can be de-tuned if required.

The T-6C is offered by BAE, Beechcraft and CAE, and despite sharing a common airframe, its systems have long moved on from those in the PC-9. The T-6 has a bigger international build run and thus spares market to draw from, and is probably a more benign handler too.

The current 4SQN FAC platforms are training platforms ONLY to train JTACs or fast-FACs. They are not designed to be operationally deployed, and the new type will continue this role. They only need to be able to shoot smoke markers and carry drop tanks.

Down-select is expected before Xmas, with contract signature in 2Q 2015.

Singa's still do their equiv of FSP at Tamworth on the CT-4B with BAE, they call it "Air grading."

Surely they are not toying with the idea of using PC21 or T6B for screening or BFTS.

No, I would not think so.

Probably a CT-4 - type follow-on. BFTS is flight grading and some basic intro lead-in to PC-9s at 2FTS.

Wouldn't hold your breath people. I'm going to stick my neck out and say this has to be the most poorly managed acquisition project currently running in the ADF. Unfortunately your average politician and senior officer cannot understand the importance of good training to capability.

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Questions about whether it is a bit too sporty for for screening/BFTS are valid

Not suitable as a screening aircraft.

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although its FCS and engine can be de-tuned if required.

No it can't be.

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Unfortunately your average politician and senior officer cannot understand the importance of good training to capability.

Training - the whipping boy of Air Power. Such a shame.

Re: Screening, the plan is to conduct this in simulators. i.e. No airborne flight screening at all.:ooh:

There is an interesting article here which compares the T-6 and PC offerings from a NZ perspective written before the final decision was made.

The main reason for the decision I read elsewhere (an Australian Aviation publication whose name escapes me) was that the specified corrosion and fatigue life of the Texan II was backed by a proven track record operating in harsh environments.

Oh, and it's cheaper too... :ok:

Maybe you can send the RNZAF acquisition team over to Oz to show these incompetents at DMO how to buy aircraft.

...these incompetents at DMO how to buy aircraft.

Hey Captain, would that be "our DMO" you are talking about?
Somewhat akin to "our ABC".

This is not a PC9 replacement program, it also has to cover the current basic phase. Both tenderers have offered a single, similar, high end type to cover from entry all the way through to graduation; neither offered a 2-aircraft solution (it was not a requirement). The simulators will be used for screening, not initial training. This is going to cost the taxpayers mucho grando to have Bloggs learn the absolute basics in a real airborne environment. I hate to think of the total cost over the next 25 years for each early scrubbed student as they walk out the gates, particularly since nearly half of the output are due to go to choppers. What ever happened to the Defence's mantra about downloading to more cost effective systems where possible and also our Government screaming about the budget deficit?

The Singaporeans at least use BAE's CT4s prior to their PC21s and the USAF/USN use Diamond D20s to get some air time prior to spending big bucks with their T6 systems. The Pommies have just, finally, chosen a 2 aircraft solution for their UKMFTS program.

The Kiwis have gone for all-through T6 training. I suspect that choice was more for morale purposes since their training aircraft will now be faster than most of their operational types.

But as others have commented, this program has been going on for eons, longer than the Caribou replacement..sorry LTAC...sorry Battlefield Airlift Aircraft program. And in saying that, one also has to remember that the ongoing 5428 team was also saddled with bulk external politics such as the need for all bidders to put forward a non-ADF airfield solution, not as an option but mandatory, for the basic training phase. And why just the Basic Phase?? I think many in Defence were hoping that requirement would go away when a certain Federal Independent Seat Member's vote was no longer needed approaching election time. I wonder how many $$ that folly cost the bidders to satisfy?

Pilot training has started

Oldish news but ...

RAAF?s first PC-21 pilots begin conversion training | Australian Aviation

I heard that this was 2(?) weeks of ground school with flying training for first 2 pilots to start 'soon' (March?)

cheers
layman