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-   -   UK Armed Forces Pay Review Body 2015 (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/548095-uk-armed-forces-pay-review-body-2015-a.html)

Just This Once... 23rd Sep 2014 15:35

UK Armed Forces Pay Review Body 2015
 
The Armed Forces Pay Review Body are doing their rounds ahead of the 2015 pay award. This is the brief the Chair, Mr John Steel, received from Danny Alexander:


29 July 2014

Dear John

PUBLIC SECTOR PAY 2015-16

I would like to thank you for your work on the 2014-15 pay round. I am strongly convinced of the role of the pay review bodies in determining national pay awards in the public sector and appreciate the important part the pay review bodies have played over the last four years. For a number of review bodies this has included providing expert advice and oversight of wider reforms to pay policy and systems of allowances, in addition to the annual award. I am confident the changes brought about by the pay review body recommendations in these areas are making a significant contribution to the improvement and delivery of public services.

2. You will have seen that for the 2014-15 pay round there were some review body recommendations which, after careful consideration, the Government decided were unaffordable at this time. I hope you will appreciate this was a difficult decision and that the Government continues to greatly value the contribution of the pay review bodies in delivering robust, evidence-based pay outcomes for public sector workers.

3. The Autumn Statement of 2013 highlighted the important role in consolidation that public sector pay restraint has played. The fiscal forecast shows the public finances returning to a more sustainable position. However, the fiscal challenge remains and the Government believes that the case for continued pay restraint across the public sector remains strong. Detailed evidence will be provided during pay review process, but at the highest level, reasons for this include:

a. Recruitment and retention: While recognising some variation between remit groups, the evidence so far is that, given the current labour market position, there are unlikely to be significant recruitment and retention issues for the majority of public sector workforces over the next year.

b. Affordability: Pay restraint remains a crucial part of the consolidation plans that are continuing to help put the UK back on to the path of fiscal sustainability – and continued restraint in relation to public sector pay will help to protect jobs in the public sector and support the quality of public services.

4. In the 2013 Budget the Government announced its policy that public sector pay awards would be an average of up to 1 per cent in 2015-16.

5. The pay review bodies will want to consider the evidence carefully in producing their reports. In particular, what award is justified within the bounds of pay restraint and whether there is a case for a higher award to particular groups of staff, relative to the rest of the workforce, due to particular recruitment and retention difficulties.

6. Pay awards should be applied to the basic salary based on the normal interpretation of basic salary in each workforce. This definition does not include overtime or any regular payments such as London weighting, recruitment or retention premia or other allowances.

7. Following the Government’s announcement in the 2013 Spending Review, substantial reforms to progression pay have been taken forward or are already underway across the public sector. As in the 2014-15 pay round, the Government also asks the pay review bodies to again consider the impact of their remit group’s progression structure and its distribution among staff in recommending annual pay awards.

8. I look forward to your recommendations, and reiterate my thanks for the invaluable contribution made by the Armed Forces’ Pay Review Body during the course of this Parliament.
It seems the Treasury has a less optimistic opinion of the labour market than the recent figures would have us believe. They are also much more optimistic about our retention figures than our official statistics seem to express.

Still, I'm sure our 'independent' body will provide the correct advice to their lords and masters….

sharpend 23rd Sep 2014 15:59

And have you seen what MPs are being awarded?

Just This Once... 23rd Sep 2014 16:16


Mr Boo said a review of evidence had shown that economic forecasts were improving while MPs' salaries had "fallen behind" others working in comparable public sector roles.
Ah but the evidence shows that the economic forecasts are improving, so that is ok, isn't it?

Did their pay body not get the memo from the Treasury stating that it was not true?

9%

:ugh:

SirToppamHat 23rd Sep 2014 18:12


You will have seen that for the 2014-15 pay round there were some review body recommendations which, after careful consideration, the Government decided were unaffordable at this time.

within the bounds of pay restraint
I don't know why they bother.

STH

Onceapilot 23rd Sep 2014 18:35

The "unpaid" pay review body generally "do" it for...ticks towards their OBE, MBE, other Senior Honours, Political "Help" etc, etc....
Let's face it, a total Con...!

OAP

adminblunty 23rd Sep 2014 20:39

Employee turnover in HM Treasury is circa 25% and they've a 1% pay award, I'm sure turnover in the Armed forces is much lower. MPs salaries are set by IPSA independent of HM Treasury guidance.

Pay and expenses for MPs - UK Parliament

Thelma Viaduct 23rd Sep 2014 22:28

MPs get rewarded for putting the country £1.3 trillion in the red? That makes perfect sense.

Rotate 24th Sep 2014 01:21

Really!?
 
So in ref to item 3a...has nobody told Dan that some of the major airlines have started recruiting?

The AFPRB better move fast to keep up with the mountain of applications that just landed on BA's mat as of the closing date of yesterday for the managed path! :ok:

Interesting times ahead for all. But at least, according to Danny, we don't have a recruitment and retention issue. It would appear they don't value experience. Just how much does an aircraft accident cost these days anyway? :ugh:

It's also a good job that we don't have any upcoming areas of concern where some of that experience may prove handy!

Selatar 24th Sep 2014 07:07

AFPRB
 
Sadly these annual reports are not independent and never have been. Whilst in the good times that's less important and visible the last 4 years highlight how they are fully meshed with policy from No 11.

The RAF as a whole don't have a retention issue IMHO. Outside of redundancy periods 10% leave every year. Currently that's just over 3 000 folks. Recruitment I'm not so sure about given it has been so low over recent years and is still way off what is needed to steady numbers: currently 1800 joining annually. You can all do the math. Nice new advert so I'm sure it will be fine...

Heathrow Harry 24th Sep 2014 10:01

Do you remember what happened when the review bodies WERE more or less independent - 30% for the miners for example

You can't separate what people get from what is available to pay them.............

Sandy Parts 24th Sep 2014 12:35

HH - fine - just don't call it a gold nugget if it is really a turd dipped in glitter! (i.e. 'independent')

Melchett01 24th Sep 2014 16:29

So let me see if I understand.

When times are good and the economy is booming, keeping a lid on inflationary pressures is cited as the reason for a sub-inflation rise.

When times are bad, affordability is cited as the excuse, sorry, reason for the same limited rise.

Is there ever a good time to pay the military what they are actually worth?

SamYeager 24th Sep 2014 18:11


Originally Posted by Melchett01 (Post 8670387)
Is there ever a good time to pay the military what they are actually worth?

To ask the question is to answer it as I'm sure you already knew. :)

5 Forward 6 Back 24th Sep 2014 18:23


6. Pay awards should be applied to the basic salary based on the normal interpretation of basic salary in each workforce. This definition does not include overtime or any regular payments such as London weighting, recruitment or retention premia or other allowances.
Does this mean I should expect a 0.8%-1% basic pay rise, and they'll claw back last year's X factor increase by not increasing flying pay....? :mad:

Hangarshuffle 24th Sep 2014 18:33

Guess the recommended % increase.
 
I make an uneducated but cynical guess it will be around just less than a 1 % increase.
Price Waterhouse Coopers website say the UK economy is showing positive growth trends, and we could be the 5th largest economy in the world, overtaking France.
But of course this is all relative.
Inflation was 1.5% in August....
I met some of the AFPRB once, decent enough people, high achievers etc.
Thing is HM Forces are just taken for granted, they have no political clout to punch with, most are quite young and green, don't vote, cant strike and can be bossed around at will.
When you wise up a bit (30 something plus in my feeble admittance) its too late
Its not hard to figure how it will go.
I wish more serving people (my old mates, what's left in) would simply tell their bosses to go forth and multiply, and then leave, to be honest.


Believe me there are jobs and roles and better pay and treatment outside for every single last one of you reading this if you are minded to leave.

5 Forward 6 Back 24th Sep 2014 19:48

HS, if you can PM me details of a job that pays what I earn now (or more!), compensates for the loss of pension a little, and lets me live somewhere closer to home then you'll be on my Christmas card list for life :sad:

Willard Whyte 24th Sep 2014 23:58

Depends, what do you earn now?

salad-dodger 25th Sep 2014 06:34


HS, if you can PM me details of a job that pays what I earn now (or more!), compensates for the loss of pension a little, and lets me live somewhere closer to home then you'll be on my Christmas card list for life
You forgot to factor in the massive improvement in quality of life which most people seem to benefit from when they leave. I certainly did, along with the pay rises, living where I want, etc etc. Pension may not be as good, but you might never get to take it. Live life. YOLO as my son tells me.

S-D

2Planks 25th Sep 2014 08:25

How to weigh this one up?
Public sector unionised groups going on strike over similar poor rises vs Monarch staff taking a 30% pay cut and a redundancy programme.


Not sure of the answer!

VinRouge 25th Sep 2014 08:29

Admin blunty, I hear pvr rate is around 16% at the moment and not slowing down....

5 Forward 6 Back 25th Sep 2014 10:48

WW, top level Flt Lt with top rate FP... and salad-dodger, if it got me home more often than now I'd forgo the pension quite happily!!

Uncle Ginsters 25th Sep 2014 20:36

I appreciate that this thread concerns AFPRB but when will they learn that it's not about pay, moreso the "non-remunerative issues" that have impinged on Service life over the last decade or so. These are different depending on your branch, location or rank but, broadly speaking, a smaller 'expeditionary' force, with greater civilian contractual support simply means more time away from home for those in blue.

Many fleets see no end to the dets and it's effectively a become a singlies life. All along, allowances are cut to the core and, when at home, there's still little flex to partake in AT, sport or any form of regenerative training.

With TELIC III on the cards in the coming days, these are the issues that will make or break.

Back to the OP's letter though...at what point does a 20% real terms pay cut not become an issue?:ugh:

Willard Whyte 26th Sep 2014 00:32

5F6B, a train driver's basic wage is ~£50k. Depends very much on the company though, varies from £45K-£55K. That's for a 35hr 4 day week (an industry 'standard'). With overtime? Working a 5 day week throughout the year would add ~£15K on top. Couple of people where I work were on £75K before tax last FY. Training takes about a year on a reduced wage of ~£25K + overtime, say around £30K. 7 weeks leave a year, 5 day weekend every 3 weeks. Final salary pension too...

Last few years' pay rises where I work (most recent, 2014, first) were 2.7%, 3.2%, 5.5%(!), 3.7%. O.K., I'm not going to 'make a million' and pay off the mortgage in the next five years, but it pays for an enjoyable life, nice holidays and lots of treats for the family.

But best of all, I enjoy going to work - and I enjoy going home again when the only thing to 'worry' about is what time* I need to set the alarm for.

*Frickin' early sometimes, it has to be said, but getting home before 09:00 on those days is a bonus.

Hangarshuffle 26th Sep 2014 19:39

Intimidated by the worry, the doubt of leaving?
 
Please, don't be. Trust me when I say it, but civvy street is easy after the RN, and will be after the RAF and Army to.
People are nicer, gentler and speak to you more informally and in a fairer, easier manner. The money is far, far better in like for like roles. Me- even me, increased his pay by (hang on as I do the arithmetic) something like 63.3% per annum (but I work literally half the hours I once did, and for like-minded decent people). And when I added on my pension....smiley thing logo here please.
I would say again, if you have any doubts about what you are now doing, and find the pay and future outlook unreasonable, well take courage, take the initiative and leave the uniform behind you.


* In a way (because you cant look back in anger, there lies madness and bitterness) I wish I had not extended my service as I did, when offered - this was a mistake on my part, I now feel. I'm a far happier, better all round person now as a civvy, probably because of the reasons I stated above.

kintyred 26th Sep 2014 20:17

I think that it is important to feel valued in whatever job you're doing and pay is an element of that reward. I joined the Services with my eyes wide open about the financial remuneration...and could even make an educated guess about what I could have earned had I pursued a career in civvy street. The truth is that you are very well paid in the first few years of service and slowly fall behind your peers after that. Nevertheless you don't have to work to hard for your money (don't confuse spending time at work with actual mental or physical effort). I used my time in the Services to secure my financial future using the resources available to me (cheap accommodation, early finishes on bad weather days, relatively high pay in my early twenties). By my early forties I didn't ever need to work again.
You guys are clever people, what I did wasn't rocket science and there are many more opportunities than there were twenty odd years ago - don't worry about the extra few quid a week you will or won't get from HMG from 1 April next year, go and make it for yourselves! I loved the experiences I had in the military, many of which I couldn't have got elsewhere (!). Everybody wants to be paid more, servicemen love to have a whinge. Moan by all means but don't get bitter, enjoy your time in the mob and remember that your financial future is in your hands!

ralphmalph 29th Sep 2014 16:15

Hangarshuffle....

I honestly couldn't put it better myself.

Ralph

Melchett01 29th Sep 2014 16:30

From the BBC website discussing the Chancellor's announcement today that a proposed benefit's freeze would save £3bn:


The £3bn saving is part of £12bn in welfare reductions previously floated by the chancellor. He also said there would be £13bn of Whitehall savings, which will include public sector pay restraint.
Given that these £3bn in savings are due to come in in 2016 if the Tories win the next election, can we infer that we should expect an extended period of pay restraint - 1% max p/a, and then possibly targeted - for the foreseeable future?

If so, what will the cumulative effect on pay be since austerity started? On second thoughts, don't tell me, I'll probably only cry.

Bannock 29th Sep 2014 16:56

Public Sector pay restraint wil be for a further 2 years. Might as well stand down the AFPRB and save some more money.

5 Forward 6 Back 29th Sep 2014 17:00

Melch, it's in the report (as in the AFPRB one)! They had a table either this year or last showing overall how much worse off you could be compared to 2009/10 depending on rank. I'll see if I can find it...

Found it, it was in the 2013 report. It compared rates of pay in 2010-11 with those for 2012-13, and assessed the effect of the (then) 2-year pay freeze after factoring things by RPI or CPI. Worked out thus:

RPI:
Private Lvl 4 +4.6%
Sgt Lvl 2 +0.5%
WO2 Lvl 9 -8.9%
Lt Col Lvl 5 -7.9%

CPI:
Private Lvl 4 +5.8%
Sgt Lvl 2 +1.7%
WO2 Lvl 9 -7.8%
Lt Col Lvl 5 -6.8%

So with a lot of users of this board being aircrew who's take home pay would fall between level 9 WO and level 5 Lt Col, you can assume you're worse off to the tune of around 4% per year abated by any rises. So 2 years with no rises then 2 years of 1% mean we're what, maybe 10% worse off overall?

kintyred 29th Sep 2014 17:22

Given that the government was spending 20% more than it was raising in tax....and therefore borrowing 20% of its expenditure.....like your pay for example, something had to give. It still borrows about £5bn a month to fund its spending or £150 per tax payer. I think you can assume that there's more 'pain' to come. Be thankful you don't live in Greece, where your pay would have fallen by a third in relative terms over the last 5 years.

Willard Whyte 29th Sep 2014 18:38


RPI
Private Lvl 4 +4.6%
Sgt Lvl 2 +0.5%
WO2 Lvl 9 -8.9%
Lt Col Lvl 5 -7.9%

CPI:
Private Lvl 4 +5.8%
Sgt Lvl 2 +1.7%
WO2 Lvl 9 -7.8%
Lt Col Lvl 5 -6.8%
It's in '14 too (P77 of the document, P86 of the PDF). Although, in '14 a loss of RPI/CPI for the LtCol is quoted as -4.4%/-2.7% BUT the LtCol in question rises from L3 to L6, so it's factored for increments too.

I'll dig out my pay statements from '10 to '12 and do the calcs for PA lvl 23/4/5, unless anyone beats me to it.

5 Forward 6 Back 29th Sep 2014 21:12

I missed it in '14, thanks.

It says it's the effect of 2 years of pay freeze and one of pay restraint. Compares 2013-14 to 2010-11. Involves promotion to make it sensible.

RPI:
Private L2 (2010) L5 (2014): +9.5%
Cpl L3 (2010) Sgt L3 (2014): +2.5%
WO2 L9 (2010) WO2 L9 (2014): -9.2%
Lt Col L3 (2010) Lt Col L6 (2014): -4.4%

CPI:
Private L2 (2010) L5 (2014): +11.4%
Cpl L3 (2010) Sgt L3 (2014): +4.3%
WO2 L9 (2010) WO2 L9 (2014): -7.6%
Lt Col L3 (2010) Lt Col L6 (2014): -2.7%

I guess if you're marking time as Flt Lt you're probably not far off the WO2 stuck at his top level. The private increase looks ok until you realise it's 11.4% split over 4 years, so still sub-3% a year.

Party Animal 30th Sep 2014 07:37

Don't forget many aircrew officers will also be caught out by the loss of 'Family Allowance'. A recent member of my team - Flt Lt PAS at top end of the pay scale, with 3 kids under 16 lost iro £2k per year. :mad:

PFMG 30th Sep 2014 16:26

I'm actually in that 40% taxpayer, 3 child position and the actual loss is more like 3 grand of gross earnings as the "family allowance" was paid net of tax.

And while I'm wound up, the statement about the government borrowing more than it receives in tax is not helped when they made great swaths of taxpayers redundant. Public servants are part of that rare breed that actually pay the right amount of tax. People with businesses and I include (especially) self employed consultants, offset much or their earnings against costs (ie those normal things that most of us take on the chin after tax).

And guess where lots of work went after we laid off some of our best talent - yes the same people set up as consultants or private companies doing the job for more money and paying back less in tax. - Rant off

Heathrow Harry 30th Sep 2014 17:23

"(especially) self employed consultants"

have no guaranteed work, no guaranteed pension, no paid health plan, no paid holidays.............. they pay for it all themselves

some you win, some you lose

Biggus 30th Sep 2014 19:13

"Public servants" don't create any wealth for the country.

They are paid for by the government, by the tax taken from wealth generators. The amount of tax they pay is actually irrelevant, since the government pays them for them with one hand, and gets back some money in taxes with the another - but they represent a drain, albeit in most cases a necessary one, on the public purse.

MSOCS 1st Oct 2014 11:49

Biggus,

You wouldn't happen to know the cost of everything but the value of nothing now, would you?!

Thought so.

Sandy Parts 1st Oct 2014 12:39

hey Party - don't feel too sorry for your mate - if he is Flt Lt PAS and near the top (level 35? - think there is a bar for Flt Lt under the latest system? ) - he is on near enough £80k. Not too shabby. I speak as someone who was also pulling in the PAS moolah until redundancy - not much chance of replicating that wage in civvy street in my locale. However, happy enough on what I get (plus pension) and being able to stay where I want to live. Swings and roondaboots (as the locals say :p)

Party Animal 1st Oct 2014 13:10

Sandy - I agree that 80k isn't too shabby but the relative point is:

2011 - 0% pay rise versus inflation rise of 4% (RPI/CPI)
2012 - 0% pay rise versus inflation rise of 4% (RPI/CPI)
2013 - 1% pay rise versus inflation rise of 4% (RPI/CPI)
2014 - 1% pay rise versus inflation rise of 4% (RPI/CPI)

in addition to a loss of £1-3k per annum from Child Benefit allowance.

Therefore, I suspect the majority of public sector employees feel significantly worse off than compared to 5 years ago, regardless of the fact that gross pay has gone up a little bit over that same period.

That's not me being political by the way - just stating the facts.

kintyred 1st Oct 2014 14:41

Well said Biggus!

Some public sector employees seem to think that their income should only ever go up. My income will fall by 20% this year compared with last. That's life....and just means that my contribution to the public purse will be that much smaller. I value the public sector employees' contribution and want to see them adequately rewarded, perhaps it's time to end their defined benefits pension schemes; it would put them on a par with the private sector, there might even be some spare cash to offer increased salaries.

MSOCS, you could then decide how much value you put on your pension!


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