BBC 2 : Castles In The Sky
 

Just a heads up for those Members interested ...

http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/corporate/im...24rl4w.jpg/624

More here ...

BBC - Castles In The Sky - Media centre

Thursday 4 September 2014
9.00pm-10.30pm
BBC TWO BBC TWO HD

Let's hope the BBC do the story justice :ok:

Best ...

Coff.

Thanks for the heads up - I shall try to stay awake that late :(

Cheers Coff,

All noted, could be interesting.

Smudge:ok:

Just seen a trailer of this on the Beeb and it looks like a programme not to be missed. I wonder what mentions will be made of Bawdsey Manor and Orfordness?

We would all be speaking German now without the invention of radar and the warnings made it possible to scramble squadrons "as required" rather than having to maintain standing patrols which inevitably, 90% of the time would be in the wrong place at the wrong time and short of fuel.

One to record and enjoy again methinks.

MB

Madbob:

Also the ability and foresight of ACM (at the time) Dowding, to devise the fighter control system we still see today. A man who was cr****d on from a great height by RAF political machination.

Interesting squadron state board in the background of Coffs picture. When I was involved with the restoration of actual 11 Group ops center in the early seventies the station line up read:

Tangmere, Northweald, Hornchurch, Kenley, Biggin Hill, Debden, Nprtholt.

Bob C

The Scottish news just reported on the unveiling of what is unbelievably the first ever memorial to the man, erected in his home town of Brechin.

Sorry don't have a link but its a nice statue with him looking skyward with what looks to be a Spitfire in his hand.

Top job Bob.

Coochycool ...

Here you go :ok:

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/image...2033_photo.jpg

Image Credit : BBC

More here ...

BBC News - Statue of radar pioneer Watson-Watt unveiled in Brechin

Ah thanks Coffs.


If anyone's ever in the vicinity I can also recommend the Montrose Aviation Heritage Centre just 6 miles down the road.


At what was remarkably the UKs first military airfield.


And the cemetery on the edge of town is a veritable who's who of aviation pioneers going back to 1912.

Thanks again for the nudge ... I shall be in a transit hotel near LHR tomorrow night, with an early taxi to Terminal 5. iPlayer time when I get home at the end of the month, I suspect.

I shall certainly watch!
I like the statue. Well done to all involved!

OAP

All the radar chain did was give initial warning and direction of the attack. Plus an estimate of the raid size and some indication of the mission of the raid (namely if the track was moving at high speed and high, it was most likely a fighter sweep). Of course this allowed the fighters on the ground to be scrambled or brought to cockpit readiness before the raid reached the coast and allowed them to get to altitude. But the majority of the intercept was controlled using ROC plots as neither of the Chain Home systems in use worked over land. Also neither CH or CHL worked down to the deck, so very low level raids were only detected by the ROC as they crossed the coast, fortunately only two Luftwaffe units specialised in low level attack and though they were successful against coastal targets, against deeper penetration targets they got a right royal shoeing by the fighter defences. The command and control system was indeed the real game changer and though called the Dowding system, the basic principles were drawn up by E B Ashmore, a RFC General in 1917 to defend against Zeppelins and Gotha bomber raids. This system then became the basis of the ROC tracking system. What Dowding did was streamline it (after the first Chain Home based exercise ended in complete failure) plus introduced the Filter system to correlate the multiple plots from each track plotted by multiple radars which overloaded the controllers (I think it was Keith Park who was Dowding's SASO at the time that came up with that idea). I bet none of that will be covered in this program. Of course Wattson Watt didn't invent radar (A German came up with the concept in 1904 and the US Navy and the Germans had working very short range pulse radars before the first British trial even took place (and all that did was prove that an aircraft (A Heyford) would reflect enough radio energy to allow it to be tracked at range by the vertical movement of a dot on an oscilloscope. The BBC transmitter used was CW and no ranging was possible)). What he did do was head the team that invented Air Defence primary radar, IFF/SSR and Airborne radar, plus push for the development of high power microwave valves, which of course lead to the Cavity Magnetron which or course was a war winning invention.

For those Members interested ...

RAF Swingate Dover Kent "Hell-Fire Corner" WWII Chain Home Station ... what's left of it :(

Quite a few interesting pictures here from a Local History Group ...

RAF Swingate, Dover.

Many will probably remember seeing the reconstructed four masts appearing in film "The Battle of Britain"

http://lh4.ggpht.com/-xi2-MdjS_Lo/UP...arstation3.jpg

WWII Chain Home RDF configuration ... I'm not certain this pic is of Dover but shows three of four Tx masts (left) and the four Rx masts (right).

http://spitfiresite.com/uploaded_ima...chain-home.jpg

Coff.

PS. As a young Dover lad ... I had a ringside seat during filming :ok:

Shame to belittle the efforts of early RADAR MJF. Surely, the work of these pioneers was of great value and, led to the developments and investment that produced further fruit? I understand though, if the thrust of the programme misses the important element of the ROC? As for Sir Keith Park?
Seems to me to have been a giant of a man!

OAP

Agreed OAP ... Let's see how the BBC treat the subject ... Remembering that it's badged as "Factual Drama"

MJ was only pointing the shortfalls of the original systems and the fact that the principles existed in theory before being proven. Most things are evolution rather than revolution, and you got a wider view of the subject as a whole.

Onceapilot & Coff

I've spent the majority of a now finished 30 years in the RAF working on the systems that were born out of what this program is about, know the history of most of it backwards and will no doubt watch this program with comments of 'Very well researched' and 'Bollc@cks, that's not how it happened at all' in equal measure. I don't see Dowding's name in the cast list, though hopefully he will get some small mention seeing he's the man who authorised the funding required set up the trials at Orfordness in the first place.

.
It was a peace winning invention as well in the form of the microwave oven. It was discovered during trials of H2S radar that food nearby would warm up. This was caused by the cavity magnetron. Unfortunately ,as was the case in most of these things, the yanks developed it.

Rolling 20

About the only place you will find a Magnetron in most countries is in a Microwave Oven. I can't think of any kit that the British Military have that still uses them bar what is at Spadeadam (the Russian stuff). It shouldn't have been a surprise to anybody that high energy radio waves cooked things, seeing that what Robert Watson Watt was first asked to find out was is a radio death ray possible. Skip Wilkins did the calculations that proved that it was, but not with anything close to the power output of the equipment available at the time. H2S may have cooked people on the ground, But I've seen footage of RDF mechanics picking up the bodies of dead birds laying at the base of Chain Home transmitter aerials and GCI antennas after picking a very bad place to roast overnight.

Magnetron
 

Indeed we do still use them, in prodigious quantities.

In one case, as the major user among about 13 countries who use the same kit, it falls to us to ensure the supply chain is sustained. To that end, the tube is second sourced to a Scandinavian company. It also falls to us to maintain the Environmental Test Chambers which have very restrictive rules about certification and calibration. (MoD owns them, not industry). They MUST be certified annually by the original manufacturer, which is increasingly difficult and expensive (and I'm sure is quietly ignored). About 22 years ago it was alarming to find the ETCs were mounted on wooden plinths which had all rotted. Thankfully, Merlin had forgotten to cost such testing (come on, TEST a radar? You must be joking) and were in a panic, so I "gifted" the facility to them and they coughed up to repair it. Better that than admit they'd built all this expensive kit that could not be certified for about 4 years. That's what happens when you do away with Requirement Managers posts and the Fire Control and Surveillance Radar IPT, disbanded in 1990!

tucumseh

Not on any RAF ground kit in service that I know of since 1998 (bar Spadeadam), maybe a different story for the Navy, but I've never got chance to look at the radar office in any of the ships that I ever have been on (T22,T23,T42) to talk engineering of the kit on board.

On balance I thought the programme was quite good and certainly worth watching. Yes I would have liked more on the technical background ... but that's just me I guess. Probably a bit rushed at the end in terms of integrating RDF into the Fighter Control infrastructure ... but it was badged as a drama and needed to be watchable/engaging for a majority.

I'm sure there were excerpts from the Battle of Britain film used in the making of this production :8

Here is the OU follow-up link ...

OU on the BBC: Castles in the Sky - OpenLearn - Open University

Interesting info provided by the OU ... See ... Radar: What happened next?

Coff.

Managed to mis-set my DVR timer - is the programme due to be repeated other than on that buffering iPla y er rubbish?

Must admit I enjoyed it too.

I still remember the H2S magnetron frequency was 9375 Mhz and the klystron frequency was 9330 Mhz giving a "working" beat frequency of 45 Mhz.

Buggered if I can remember my mobile telephone number :(

I found the programme a bit confusing at times. Why did Lindemann have Watson- Watt excluded from the ops room in the scene towards the end?

OK I'll bite first.


If I'd been married to a woman like that, our kids would have ended up talking German.




All sixteen of them..........

From what I have read Lindeman and Tizzard hated each others guts with a passion, come from the BBC book 'The Secret War' by Brian Johnson and R V Jones's book 'Most Secret War'


Would have been good at the end to fade from aa 1940 ops room to the present day at Scampton, maybe use the Battle of Britain documentary fronted by Colin and Ewan McGregor.

IMHO a very well balanced programme which I enjoyed

My own feelings was he was excluded so they could bask in the limelight and take some credit for the work, that and some resentment that he was right.

Excellent show and Beags, one would imagine it will be on catch up, I checked, but it's probably to early for it to be listed.

That's two good new shows in one week, the other new one being about the beginnings of Chester Zoo.

@ MAINJAFAD

A slip of the pen? :)

STP

Steve

Damm Autochecker. Of course i mean roost, but of course they did a bit of roasting as well.

To be honest, too much drama, not enough factual (in fact quite a bit of it didn't happen like that at all). 10 out of 10 for showing Lindermann as a major hindrance, but that was at the start of the project. He was on the Tizard committee when it formed (he was put on it to keep Churchill quiet), but did nothing but rubbish RDF in an attempt get funding for his own pet projects (Aerial Minefields and Infrared detection). The other members of the committee bar Tizard, Lindermann and Rowe (who was the Secretary) resigned which allowed Tizard to disband and reform it without Lindermann. By the time this happened Watson Watt's team had already built a working system at Orfordness with a range of 80 miles and were well on the way to solving the problems that gave them the real headaches (bearing and height finding). As for bouncing signals of the ionosphere to increase range, totally boll@cks. Reflections off the ionosphere were a major problem with CH (it caused clutter) that required some careful design in radar operating parameters to overcome. By the end of 1935 the Air Ministry were totally committed on building the first 5 CH Stations starting at Bawdsey. As for the end part in the Ops room with an Operational Trial on the eve of the start the Battle of Britain? The first five stations were fully operational by the time of Munich, the command and control bugs were being ironed out (the filter room had just been installed at Bentley Priory and declared operational) and one of the first tracks ever plotted by the RAF C&R network was Chamberlain's aircraft outbound to Germany for his 'peace in our time; meeting with Adolf. Plenty of real operational radar controlled combat intercepts had been done before July 1940. Watson Watt wasn't cut out of anything, he became the director of Bawdsey and in 1938 was promoted to control development of the wider range of radio systems at the Air Ministry.

Ok, its a television drama designed for people that don't know the subject and technical issues don't make good drama and in that light, it does highlight what was done. Though the Telephone in the bucket of water bit wasn't done by Watson Watt, it was favorite of R V Jones. I think Peter Ustinov's 1946 film based on what TRE did from 1938 - 1945 is better, even with its 1940's stereotypes because most of what was shown on film actually happened.

BEagle ...

Now up on BBC iPlayer :ok:

Coff.

PS. No buffering issues with Sky Anytime ...

Beags
Don't get too excited - your favourite excerpt from the BoB film is not included!

I tend to agree with MAINJAFAD I spent most of the programme with my copy of Taffy Bowen's "Radar Days" open on my lap saying "but it didn't happen like that and, "b@llocks, they were given the valves - they did not steal them!!"


Still to the uninitiated it at least showed the birth of Chain Home / CHL.


Radar101

To me, it was well acted but, like most tech/historic productions, a little dissapointing. Face the facts, impossible to do adequately?

OAP

I have 5 radar history books I would recommend. The first is the most technical tome - and rarest. The last two are more historical reminiscences of operators. The last is a part of the history of RAF GCI little known, a mobile radar advancing through Normandy and France to the Rhine - sometimes finding themselves on a hilltop between the lines!

Technical History of the Beginnings of Radar; S.S. Swords, Peter Peregrinus Ltd on behalf of the Institute of Electrical Engineers. ISBN 0-86341-043-X

A Radar History of World War II - Technical and Military Imperatives; Louis Brown, Institute of Physics Publishing Bristol and Philadelphia. ISBN 0-7503-0659-9

The Invention that Changed the World; Robert Buderi, Simon Schuster. ISBN 0-684-81021-2

Radar - A Wartime Miracle; Colin Lataham and Anne Stobbs, Alan Sutton Publishing Ltd. ISBN 0-7509-1114-X

Off to War with "054", John Kemp, Merlin Books Ltd. ISBN 0-86303-459-4

I thought it was good television drama with the added bonus that it featured a significant element in our history. Had it been truly factual and accurate the majority of viewers (at whom it was aimed) would have changed channels after ten minutes or so and nothing would have been gained. Even Mrs P, who cringes at anything aeronautical, (who can blame her?) thought it was watchable.

Thoroughly enjoyed it as TV entertainment.
 

Impressed once again by Eddy Izzard in a serious roll, and not a false eyelash or stiletto heal in sight!

Sadly I wish the writer, director and editor had put a little more effort into the historical accuracy of the whole story. People will be saying "it's just entertainment and not supposed to be an accurate account of history" however films and tv programmes do end up distorting the truth however unintentional.

As an example I was staying with friends in Las Vegas just after the film U571 came out on DVD. These friends are educated to phd standard and very successful business people.
We decided to watch U571 one evening which we thoroughly enjoyed as a piece of entertainment. Over a before bed tipple we were discussing the film when I mentioned that the film was in fact pretty inaccurate in the respect that it was the British who captured the enigma from U110 in 1941 and the polish had actually captured an earlier version several years beforehand.
My friend's reactions were complete disbelief and swore that nobody would be aloud to re write history in such a way. Fortunately my friends being in the IT business, they were already connected up to the Internet and used to doing research on the Web. The next morning at breakfast my friend apologised to me profusely for not believing what I had said about the film. In his embarrassment he took us out for a very nice lunch at the Bellagio.

Ah the cousins' view (or Hollywood's) of WW2!

I seem to recall seeing a B of B scene in a US film - can't remember which one - where the "wonderful new radar" had PPI screens complete with rotating sweep, rather than the actual Chain Home displays comme ça:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...3.047.058A.jpg

I watched it for 5 minutes and switched channels I do not do docudramas but I do appreciate I am not a typical viewer. I would think that most viewers only vaguely knew about RDF and this was the background for a play.
I do hope the viewers who watched it all the way through enjoyed it and it makes them investigate the background of the drama further.