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1982 Task Force Question
Hello all,
I am trying to put together the puzzle from the May 30th attack (Falklands / Malvinas 1982). That day, 2 Exocets and four A4c´s attacked the fleet with Exocet and bombs. Exeter shot down two Skyhawks. For the experts in the forum, do you remember what chaff "D" was? Also, remember the EMCOM policy at the time? I mean, all radars were on at the time, or not? For now, this is theoretical SAM coverage of the fleet, at 1730z, May 30th 1982. At the bottom of the image, the route of the attackers and the radar "paints" at them http://imageshack.com/a/img30/5369/igvo.jpg Regards! |
I will try to help. Chaff Delta is fired for distraction. Making a nice big false target, but it not effective at high speed as you want to stay in the pattern. THe scale of your map is a bit misleading Exeter was a about 25 miles south of the main task group and the T21 a further 10 south of her, so well within Sea Dart's envelope. EMCON state would depend on the perceived threat the time. The Etendards and the Exocet would have been detected by both ships passive systems which would give an approximate bearing of the threat. No point in staying EMCON silent once you been detected and fired at. Exeter behaved exactly as she should picking up the raid and taking out two.
I might be hepful to watch this documentary at 18:00 minutes in. Shame you are so far away. My collection of book on the conflict are now available. Probably the finest collection anyone could want.. Im moving kindle which is easier on aging eyes. |
Is this about to lead in to that utterly ridiculous 'mystery' that somehow HMS INVINCIBLE was sunk on 30 May, and that HMS ILLUSTRIOUS was sent to replace her, while a new INVINCIBLE was built in record time and complete secrecy, and that in the 30 years since, not one person has admitted to what really happened?
No offence, but I fail to understand how anyone can still cling to the 'Invincible was sunk' myth after all these years? |
In fairness to OP everyone knows that claim is utter nonsense. The question asked for more details which I hope my post and the vid shed some light on. The vid was made in 83 so memory was still fresh then.
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Jim, the author of the OP demands more credit than that. He is a respected historian and not a writer of fiction.
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Fair enough PN - but I'm afraid I've seen a number of others on the net put out that there is some kind of conspiracy about the 30 May attacks. Happy to not suggest the OP is part of this, but I would suggest that there are plenty out there who still believe that there is a giant conspiracy and that they are searching for the 'truth' after all these years.
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There is a book entitled "untold stories of of the Falklands Islands" which I have. It includes a first hand account written by late Captain Balfour in which he describes the engagement including the fact that they were down to seven Sea Dart before that engagement. Its available for pennies on the Kindle book store.
Hugo White went on to be C-in-C Fleet. I have no doubt that his account was nothing other than accurate as far as will ever be know. He did plug his ship with a 4.5 kill which was somewhat over optimistic as the grin and glint in his eye suggested. A good go there. As an aside Avenger was the subject of TWO Exocet attacks one of was a land based one which hurtled noisly over her flight deck on an NGS mission at about the week. Lucky ship. |
s this about to lead in to that utterly ridiculous 'mystery' that somehow HMS INVINCIBLE was sunk on 30 May, and that HMS ILLUSTRIOUS was sent to replace her, while a new INVINCIBLE was built in record time and complete secrecy, and that in the 30 years since, not one person has admitted to what really happened? No offence, but I fail to understand how anyone can still cling to the 'Invincible was sunk' myth after all these years? Plus, you would have thought somebody would have noticed the ships KIA missing. Knowing our industry, a new Invincible would have been 15 years late and £1.2 billion over budget. And they probably would have accidentally put the ski ramp on back to front. Although, never let the truth get in the way of a good story! |
Lets not go there as it never happened as I can see from your post why It might. The aviators were airforce not trained in ship recognition which, I suspect lies of the heart of the matter,
Im much more interested in exploring what did actually happen. |
I can't believe that someone on here would bring up the Invincible balderdash.
I clearly remember the Sheffield survivors coming through Ascension and other survivors later on but certainly none from Invincible. It didn't happen, end of story. |
Shame you are so far away. My collection of book on the conflict are now available. Probably the finest collection anyone could want.. Im moving kindle which is easier on aging eyes. Guy a historian as someone has said and seems right to have collection with someone who knows its value. |
Correct. That is not was the OP was asking details for. Hope you enjoyed the old documentary from 83. It captured the first hand recollections of those that were there and I think is something of an historic document regardless which side you fought on or what shade of blue your uniform was.
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racedo,
Forum rules prevent me turning this site into an auction and I would not wish to do. I have purchased just about every book ever published on this subject. You can PM and we can take this off site. Thanks |
1771 DELETE,
Did you meet the now famous and late Captain Bob McQueen? I have his book about his time there? It was entitled Island Base. I also seem to remember that the US contingent was only about 20 bodies when it all kicked off. |
Navaleye
I have just been reading a couple of books on the events. I would like to read more detailed accounts. Would it be possible for you to list the books you have, and the authors? I would possibly like to buy them, but don't want to gazump anyone. John |
I'm conscious that my book library has hijacked someone else's thread which was never my intention. Perhaps the moderators can advise if there is a place here where I can publish my collection for those interested for genuine historic interest. Having accumulated all these over 30+ years, I would only want them to go to folks with a genuine interest. Many are long out of print and I would hate them to end up at the local bookshop. Finding a good home is all that matters. Desperately trying to stay within forum rules.... Be warned there's a lot .
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Here is the story of the the events of 30 May 1982 from a Lynx pilot flying in the thick of it...
Hello everyone, just joined today at least in part because of this thread. If anyone can definitely answer this question it is me because I watched the whole thing. I was the Lynx Pilot from HMS Andromeda. There were three ships on picket duty out to the west of the main task force that day. Avenger to the south, Exeter in the middle and Andromeda to the north in a north south line. We were at 6000 feet ahead of everyone, listening for Etendard radar on our ESM. We picked it up and warned the fleet who went 'zippo 1' which meant get ready for Exocet attack. I turned the aircraft back towards the fleet in case there were any other aircraft around. One Exocet was fired although two Etendards were there (it was their last missile). Exeter was tracking the four A4s that carried on after the Exocet launch. We got in the way of the Sea Darts she fired and almost got shot down ourselves. However they took out two A4s. I saw it happen and expect that Avenger thought one was an Exocet. The other two A4s flew over Avenger and bombed her - they missed and got away. The Exocet locked onto Andromeda. I know this because the ops room had lock on detected from the Exocet seeker head on the ships UAA1 ESM equipment. Also Exeter watched it pass astern of them. Andromeda was the third ship there fitted with the Sea Wolf SAM which should have been capable of shooting it down. Unfortunately or more probably fortunately, it ran out of fuel and splashed before it got into engagement range. An interesting day all round!!! Some facts: One missile was fired and it fell into the sea. Avenger did not shoot anything down. The surviving A4s bombed HMS Avenger and missed. HMS Invincible was miles away and was not damaged in any way. I cannot be more definite than that but as an eye witness to the whole thing maybe it will nail this lie once and for all. As for the A4 pilots claiming to have flown down the deck of Invincible and bomb her - rubbish. If anyone is interested I have a blog covering, amongst other things, my War experiences, taken from my log book. I did this last year to promote my books and if you look you will see adverts for them (sorry!) I was involved in a lot of the anti - Exocet measures - my helicopter had a jammer fitted to seduce them and I trialled it at Aberporth against a live missile so we knew it worked. I actually wrote my first novel - 'Sea Skimmer' about the Exocets because to this day I still don't know why the warheads never exploded - now the story behind this could be far more interesting than the Invincible conspiracy theory! As I couldn't find out why - I made it up - hence a novel. If anyone is interested have a look at posts from last year starting in April on http://sowethereyet.********.co.uk/ Larryjc |
Naveleye
No i did not have the pleasure of meeting him, but i might just look up his book if it is on Amazon. It was a very sorry sight seeing the Sheffield survivors arrive, all they had as a pair of navy overalls each, needless to say, they did not have to buy any drinks in the bar that first night. That was when it all became apparent to those in Ascenscion that diplomacy had failed and many people were going to lose their lives. |
acedo, Forum rules prevent me turning this site into an auction and I would not wish to do. I have purchased just about every book ever published on this subject. You can PM and we can take this off site. Thanks Assumming you donating to someone who would use. |
As you were there. I've got one (somewhere). EDIT: Bloody hell I just looked at what they want for it. It was done by a fringe publisher. If I can find it its yours. Lots of comments about Bob McQueen here ob this site. EDIT: Just found it. I will re read it tonight |
Hello all,
Thanks for all the replies, special thanks for Navaleye. First of all, I am not chasing the "sinking theory" or whatever its called that sci-fi story. I am writting an essay for the 1982 South Atlantic Air Military Congress , sponsored by the Argentine Air Force (on early September this year). My subject of study is this attack, but for now only for the British point of view. Is about what the fleet (and some RAF personnel there) saw and how reacted to the attack. It was a daring raid, maybe the "most daring" from the Argentine side, and the Task Force behaved really well in defense. An interesting day to analyze, I think. I did a lot of research in the matter. I searched the National Archives (at Kew) from top to bottom, researched in the IWM audio library (a good account of Exeter`s CO there), readed various books and articles, and interviewed: a Lynx pilot who saw the events (part of his recollections already quoted in this thread), a radar operator in HMS Cardiff, an aircraft handler at HMS Invincible and the First Lt. of HMS Avenger. And really, I am just beginning! If anyone was there at the time or have info about the event (and is interested in sharing it), please let me know via PM. I must say that, being Argentine, the first thing people ask me is about the "sinking theory" and if I am into it. Again, my answer is a big no. Navaleye, Force disposition at the event of the attack as follows: http://jorgek.esy.es/Imagenes/lN6lyFT.jpg The graphic above represents that. Really, in the beginning of the attack HMS Avenger headed south (because the axis of the attack was misunderstood) but all the fleet moved to 060º. I will watch the documentary. Thanks for the heads up! Best regards, Mariano PD: If anyone is interested in the congress (http://www.fuerzaaerea.mil.ar/histor...greso_2014.pdf ) please let me know. I know the Congress is interested in British lecturers. |
I did a lot of research in the matter. I searched the National Archives (at Kew) from top to bottom, researched in the IWM audio library (a good account of Exeter`s CO there), readed various books and articles, and interviewed: a Lynx pilot who saw the events (part of his recollections already quoted in this thread), a radar operator in HMS Cardiff, an aircraft handler at HMS Invincible and the First Lt. of HMS Avenger. And really, I am just beginning! Godspeed, my friend. See ya soon. :ok: Christian |
Mariano has the RN after action report which I have helped to deconstruct and make sense of as its full of jargon and shorthand. Unlike the army the navy doesn't do long signals.
Based on what I have seen I have a strong working theory how Jimlads myth came about. They are his documents and it requires his consent to share my theory and I can explain why. |
Navaleye
Did i see your link correct $171 for a soft back book? Must be a mistake i presume or a limited print run of one. |
Yes. Ridiculous. You can have mine PM your details if you will and I will post it over.
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Hello Navaleye, yes please go ahead.
Regards! Mariano |
Where was HMS Battleaxe?
There was another Sea Wolf equipped ship, the third Type 22 HMS Battleaxe. I have never seen any mention of her in relation to the Falklands Conflict.
I was on an RAeS tour of here when she was docked in Hull before the war and was appalled at the ship's lack of fire-power - save the Sea Wolf system of course. Does anyone know where HMS Battleaxe was during the conflict? |
I had the pleasure of meeting her then CO when he came aboard the QM2 for Trafalgar 200. I asked him about this and he said she had to return to the UK with shaft problems.
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Having looked at the materials provided to me by Mariano including debrief reports of the pilots including sketches they penned, I think the myths of the 30th May can be finally laid to rest.
1. The Etendard pilots were Navy. One of the most important skills drilled into any officer is ship recognition and you are trained to a very high standard. This is especially so for a Naval attack pilot. 2. The A4 pilots were Air Force. Used to flying over land which is what they were trained to do and I'm sure did it well. Ship recognition skills are not a priority in this case and I suspect they had little if any training in this regard. 3. Bearing in mind the last point. As we have seen from the footage of the time, the crew rooms were festooned with pictures of ships. Hermes and Invincible doubtless prominent amongst them. The tasking would doubtless have been along the lines of "Follow that missile, and sink one of them!" They would have no doubt studied the pictures carefully and went about their mission. The surviving pair came across Avenger shrouded in smoke from her gun and chaff rockets, attacked and departed. 4. At the wash-up, they drew what they genuinely thought they had seen and which is what they were tasked with which was Invincible in this case. In my opinion it was a genuine case of mistaken identity, nothing more, nothing less. I agree with Mariano, they were not lying. That is all. |
Originally Posted by Navaleye
(Post 8335429)
There is a book entitled "untold stories of of the Falklands Islands" which I have. It includes a first hand account written by late Captain Balfour in which he describes the engagement including the fact that they were down to seven Sea Dart before that engagement. Its available for pennies on the Kindle book store.
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Seems to have gone. I will try and dig out my copy to get the authors name.
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Navaleye
It's in the 'Forgotten Voices' series of books, read it a couple of weeks ago after my mother got it as part of a book club deal. |
That's the one thank you. You can pick up a softback for 1p +P&P.
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http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/5...omentoataq.jpg
The attack as seen by the fleet. The red line is the Exocet path, from the launch detection to an splash seen by Ambuscade, asuming it was the missile ditching. Exeter launched three Sea Darts. The first one missed Andromeda`s Lynx, but the second and third were assesed hits. From the post attack analysis. Regards, |
Thanks guys!
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Great map!!
Just to get it straight: the idea is that the AGAVE radars got a lock on HMS Avenger, which -somehow- got to mislead the incoming missile (chaff?)? The rumour that stated that the Exocet radar sold to Argentina had a 15° searching capacity to each side of its flying path, appears to be the actual explanation. Why then did not it lock on some other target in the area after flying by HMS Avenger? Christian |
I can answer part of that question. Any NATO weapon sold to a non NATO country has to have "export" specification. Meaning that they were detuned. Common practice in the arms business.
This means that compared to a French SuE and Exocet, the export version had only c65% of the capability. |
As we have seen from the footage of the time, the crew rooms were festooned with pictures of ships. Hermes and Invincible doubtless prominent amongst them. http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/6...3697701403.jpg |
1. The Etendard pilots were Navy. One of the most important skills drilled into any officer is ship recognition and you are trained to a very high standard. This is especially so for a Naval attack pilot.
Maybe so, but for Navy Officers, they don't seem to have realised that the high value target is going to be surrounded by escorts, so the first target they attack isn't going to be the one they want. Pop up, fire at the first target, run away and claim an aircraft carrier. The alternative would be to have a longer look and get shot out of the sky by a Sea Dart. 4. At the wash-up, they drew what they genuinely thought they had seen and which is what they were tasked with which was Invincible in this case. In my opinion it was a genuine case of mistaken identity, nothing more, nothing less. I agree with Mariano, they were not lying. They told their seniors what they wanted to hear, which you tend to do in a military dictatorship. 'Now look here, chaps, this is our last Exocet so make it count and don't come back without sinking one of the carriers'. 'Yes, Sir!' 'We definately sank one of the carriers, sir! We flew straight down the deck and bombed it. It was already one fire from the Exocet hit'. |
Great comb over...........a style I find very underrated these days.......
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