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5 Sqn Sentinal mapping floods
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Tornados also, it would seem RAF Tornado jet joins flood relief effort - Telegraph
Can't accuse RAF comms of missing a trick. Flooding is the new Global War On Terror. |
Sentinel operating over water..... I wonder how long before someone mentions "MPA"?http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...s/badteeth.gif
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3 minutes...
Jane's Defence Weekly DSEI 2013: Raytheon proposes maritime patrol Sentinel R.1 Copyright © IHS Global Limited, 2013 DSEI 2013: Raytheon proposes maritime patrol Sentinel R.1 Record Infohide Publication:Jane's Defence Weekly Author:Gareth Jennings, London Section: Country:United Kingdom Last posted:2013-09-12 Images:1 image https://janes.ihs.com/ExternalItems/...s/p1420037.jpg1420037The RAF currently fields five Sentinel R.1 aircraft, which Raytheon say can be reconfigured to undertake maritime patrol missions as part of a multirole package. (IHS/Patrick Allen) Raytheon is pitching the Sentinel R.1 stand-off ground surveillance radar aircraft as a possible solution to bridge the UK's maritime patrol capability gap, a company official told IHS Jane's on 12 September. Head of Airborne Solutions for Raytheon UK, Paul Francis, said that the idea of utilising the wide-area surveillance aircraft for maritime patrol has been presented to the Ministry of Defence (MoD) and that there has been a favourable response to the concept. However, he conceded that this is wholly dependent on the platform being retained post the Strategic Defence and Security Review in 2015. "There is a lot of interest [within the MoD], but bear in mind the current situation [regarding plans to retire the aircraft in 2015]," he said at the 2013 DSEI defence and security exhibition in London. Although the Sentinel's dual-mode ground moving target indicator synthetic aperture radar was designed for, and is wholly geared towards, overland use, Francis explained that it would only require a software change to make it compatible with maritime operations also. These changes should enable the Sentinel to detect surface vessels and potentially submarine periscopes, and additional sensors could be fitted to further boost the platform's maritime surveillance capability. Francis stressed, however, that the Sentinel would not have an offensive anti-surface vessel or anti-submarine capability, and would be purely a maritime surveillance platform. According to Francis, such a multirole platform would be an ideal fit for the UK Royal Air Force (RAF), which has not been able to field a maritime patrol capability since the government retired its Hawker Siddeley Nimrod MR.2 and cancelled its BAE Systems Nimrod MRA.4 replacement in 2010. |
It's not just the amazing technology or unparalleled view from the air that provides such a jaw-dropping capability from a fast jet. The real magic is provided by the Imagery Analysts that can pick-out key information that cannot be replicated by anyone who has not undergone years of training:
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/...d_2821834c.jpg IA Comment: Low lying ground adjacent to river is affected by flood waters. End of Comment. Anyway, the Sentinel article was pretty good.:ok: |
Surely the IA comment should relate to intelligence gleaned from other sources or previous knowledge/experience rather than the straight interpretation of the image.
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I would have thought in the case of flooding there was plenty of HUMINT available........
The only problem being that the EA, local and central government was not willing to listen, and act, on it weeks ago.....:sad::sad::sad: Now that the floods, wx and damage has come to the attention of the PM the powers that be are finally switching from continuous transmit to receive. Still, it does I suppose provide the govt with hopefully a justification to keep such capabilities as Sentinel and RAPTOR......not that I can see the strain on the defence budget being eased in any way. Maybe the CAS can use this to stop the disbanding of 5 Sqn when Op Herrick is complete. MB |
MB,
Maybe the CAS can use this to stop the disbanding of 5 Sqn when Op Herrick is complete The cynic (or should that be realist?) in me might say that is the reason they are being used in the first place, or at least the reason for the high profile BBC coverage.... ......a bit like the E-3D fleet doing their one and only deployment to Afghanistan just before SDSR2010. |
The cynic (or should that be realist?) in me might say that is the reason they are being used in the first place, or at least the reason for the high profile BBC coverage.... |
Unmissable one off opportunity to check for pot plantation loft-space thermal plumes, declared unoccupied residences, tv licences and dodgy tax discs.
I hope that the 5 sqn xmas beer call fund gets a good price for the data. :ok: |
Shame it wasn't a 617 Squadron Tonka - they do have some 'previous'
with large amounts of water.... ..hat, coat, door.... |
PS. apologies for the mis-ident to the 54(R) Sqn guys who seemed to be actually flying the mission.
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Always easier to be cynical or to snipe, but fair play and chapeau to them.
William and Harry lug sandbags in flooded Datchet - ITV News |
It's not just the amazing technology or unparalleled view from the air that provides such a jaw-dropping capability from a fast jet. The real magic is provided by the Imagery Analysts that can pick-out key information that cannot be replicated by anyone who has not undergone years of training: My best guess is that it can't do these things as it was designed with different objectives. If it just takes detailed 2D images without rectification to a datum (e.g. WGS84) then I can't see it being very useful for flood response planning. Lots of good PR for the RAF though! |
JTO. Check your PM's please.
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It's a shame that there are no satellites monitoring the UK....must be the only part of the planet with no coverage.
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This GR4 crew is taking the low level recce requirements a bit far though.
Http://www.echelonwealthcare.co.uk/s...ploads/gr4.bmp |
Are they stalking that panda in the bedroom window? Must've heard about the giraffe...
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"Slightly below glide path ... adjust you're rate if decent" ;)
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Would it be unreasonable to suggest that they should park up their Sentinals and Tornados, jump in a tilly and join in with the boys and girls lugging sandbags around the countryside? That might actually be a useful contribution.
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This is just a guess, but d'you know what, Al? I suspect that someone involved in dealing with the floods at a fairly senior level, on receipt of the offer of recce assets, consulted with his/her experts as to whether they might be useful, was told 'yes' and then replied 'That'd be great, thank you, when can we start?'
I somehow doubt that CAS, or AOC 2Grp has been generating these sorties simply because they'll play well in the press while those dealing with the flooding pause momentarily to ask 'WTF is that all about, then?' as they see the imagery. |
Not only are GCHQ listening to our mobile phone calls; the RAF are taking pictures of our back gardens.
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The requirement for airborne int was raised by CIVPOL earler this week, nothing to do with the RAF toting their capabilities. Good on those who are supporting, perhaps the keyboard warriors may reflect on what they are doing........
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I somehow doubt that CAS, or AOC 2Grp has been generating these sorties simply because they'll play well in the press while those dealing with the flooding pause momentarily to ask 'WTF is that all about, then?' as they see the imagery. I'd be happy to be proven wrong - but I suspect this is more PR and politics than a genuinely useful response to the problem. But if the Sentinel does have the capability to produce topographical data sufficiently accurate for civil engineering purposes from a high-altitude high-speed SAR platform then there is some serious money to be made... |
This is just a guess, but d'you know what, Al? I suspect that someone involved in dealing with the floods at a fairly senior level, on receipt of the offer of recce assets, consulted with his/her experts as to whether they might be useful, was told 'yes' and then replied 'That'd be great, thank you, when can we start?' |
Originally Posted by Trim Stab
(Post 8319090)
But if the Sentinel does have the capability to produce topographical data sufficiently accurate for civil engineering purposes from a high-altitude high-speed SAR platform then there is some serious money to be made...
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exercise will be very useful
This data gathering exercise will be very useful to calibrate existing flood models developed by UK agencies (CEH - hydrology, Wallingford) over the last decade or so.
Now the boffins will know where the water flows - the RAF is supplying the images. Match the RAF images to LIDAR etc. models and you have water depth, extent etc. Overfly for a couple of days and you have temporal information (flood advance, rate of, and then ebb). All that 'real-world' information can be plugged into the existing models to greatly improve them. Could save £s and lives. It isn't a PR exercise! It has great potential. Someone is thinking clearly in this emergency - good for them. Regards, Tanimbar |
One thinks the US would have a say in the matter, so no ability to sell anything. As for the fidelity, well modern radar exploitation methods are rather special. The ability to identify incredibly small changes is stunning. The data gathering technique may well have application for civil engineering, but the data processing methodology is not the same. |
Tanimbar - yes I agree with that - as a means of calibrating the accuracy of previously calculated modelling, the images could be useful - as long as there is a means to process the imagery to a common datum. Mind you, commercial satellite photographs are also good enough to use as calibration data.
It rather depends whether Sentinel can provide calibration imagery at times when satellites cannot do so. |
I'm sorry,
All of this can be done easily and cheaply using CSI ( Commercial Satellite Imagery) and a couple of Post-Grad Remote Sensing Students. Call me old fashioned , BUT: This is not the sort of tasking that traditionally trained militarily imagery interpreters should be productively employed on in place of their primary duties. Although they can of course do it. Haraka out. |
Sentinel crews get called upon to do this kind of thing in the operational environment.
They also do training in the UK. They do more than a satellite can do. Then the EA asked them to focus their training in a certain area. What is there to criticise? It really is no effort for the platform or the crews but it is a very big deal for the EA to get access to classified technology on demand. Meanwhile we have people on the ground working very very hard - these are the people that should have our admiration. |
Well said....
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Are there many of them sitting around ready to spring into action then Haraka?
If so perhaps you could pass on your observations to the Env Agency and the Government. I'm sure they hadn't considered any of that BEFORE asking for help and advice from the MOD. Is it the bad weather that is making everyone so frigging cynical and pessimistic or is it just Britain today in general? Well done to ALL of the boys and girls, whatever flavour and whatever support they are giving. I would love to know if all of those posting their pearls of wisdom have done anything to go and help out with the flood situation? There is plenty that can be done from filling sandbags to doing shopping for those that are stranded or homeless. I can even point you in the right direction if you like. (there are plenty that have pitched in so this is not aimed at you obviously) |
Are there many of them sitting around ready to spring into action then Haraka? If so perhaps you could pass on your observations to the Env Agency and the Government. I'm sure they hadn't considered any of that BEFORE asking for help and advice from the MOD. |
It really is no effort for the platform or the crews but it is a very big deal for the EA to get access to classified technology on demand. Meanwhile we have people on the ground working very very hard - these are the people that should have our admiration. As Jayminand argued, I agree completely that an accurate measure of the extent of flooding is primordial in calibrating models that have been previously developed using LIDAR and other geometric survey data. If Sentinel can outperform satellite imagery by flying "on-demand" and when atmospheric conditions are not conducive to satellite imagery, then all the better. But what really interests me is whether it can produce data accurate enough to challenge LIDAR or other conventional cloud-point imaging processes. |
Oh please,
Spare me this classified technology horse whistle. Basically ,you use digital terrain mapping (DTM) modelling to get the shape of the land (LIDAR if if you want to be very clever and support your local LIDAR capability or company).RADAR, ground truthing or traditional imagery stereo comparison if not. Then you use local historical rainfall data records to obtain ( at no effort to yourself) derived likely 10,20, 50, 100yr and RMF ( Recurrent Massive Flood ) contour flood levels. These levels you will then have as overlays on local DTM contour data. Then you overlay the current commercial satellite imagery layer ,showing urbanisation, over your contour data and you can see the threat areas. The , when it happens , it is a simple change detection exercise to lay the actual imagery over the historical model and read off the changes. And , yes, I have done it for real , also using radar when cloud obscured the AOI. |
So a waste of taxpayers' money? I think we should know...
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Trim stab,
In a word. No. |
Tornados and Sentinel fly routine training sorties. These aircraft would have flown regardless of this tasking, so no extra cost. In fact I'd wager the Tornado task actually SAVED the taxpayer some money because the aircraft probably only flew once, instead of a more usual 2 or 3 times that day (due to the time needed to load and unload the pod). However, putting a BBC crew on the Sentinel probably cost a couple of WSOps a valuable sortie...
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However, putting a BBC crew on the Sentinel I'm with Haraka entirely on this - I don't believe a word of the RAF/Government PR on this story. RAF PR should get real - in the internet age they can't mislead people with "top secret" gobbledygook anymore... |
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