PQ17
 

I've just been watching a programme on BBC2 about the Artic Convoys. By Jeremy Clarkson of BBC Top Gear fame.
Well done JC and BBC, a very good programme.
Concede this has little to do with this website.
Except as a good history lesson in operating ships without adequate air defence umbrella? Or the perils of being under military command?


Met a couple of DEMS gunners many years ago in Wallsend, old boys and decent brave humble men -RIP.
Anyone else see it care to comment?

Yes, I saw it and it filled in a few gaps in the vague details I had from reading about it as a lad. You have to ask how a man with a brain tumour and exhausted from lack of restful sleep should have been left in the position of 1st Sea Lord to make such important decisions.

This is not a dig at the man himself but a criticism of those who were aware of his health problems, which were surely bound to affect those decisions and did nothing about it.

Forgive my 1st post but the Russian convoys were brutal. I escorted some Veterans arround our replenisher some years back and one of the old boys asked to sit it out. He had a bad limp, told me the leg was amputated by a Russian surgeon at Polyarno without anaesthetic, calmly told me the Russ threatened him with a revolver to shut up his screams, the surgeon was angry but also exhausted. he was nineteen at the time. Truly horrible, beyond my capacity for thought to be honest.

Must have been a tremendous,terrible strain for Pound. I mean those two months of the war July and August 1942 there is so much going on. Artic and PQ17 but one battle. Also Malta convoy with Pedestal. Atlantic convoy. North Africa and Rommel's so called Plan Orient*. German push toward the oil culminating in Stalingrad What we call the Far East and Guadalcanal (spell?) for the Americans. Dieppe raid. Frightful really. We were losing, everywhere.


*Not positive on plan name but did he not want to hook left up through Palestine and the Levant and link up with Army Group South?


So much going on. Sacrifice the Merchant men to save his cruisers and destroyers for another day?

It was a remarkably good programme. Old JC (who wrote and presented it) has a good feel for such things. Not just a petrol head.

I wonder what he will do next? RAFs Battle of Berlin? Dieppe Raid? If he wants to do another about unmitigated disasters.

Or maybe he just wants to make good programmes about interesting and (in some places) little understood military historical events.

Expect he may do more on the First War soon, what with the anniversary of it all this year. Max Hastings has a book out about the same, going to read it. I've tried to upload the pictures I took of the little known Merchant Navy memorial at South Shields and failed dismally, will try again tomorrow.

PQ17
 

My late uncle was on the Minelayer HMS Menestheus with the 1st Minelayer Sqn at this time. As most of the Squadron were converted merchantmen, they were used as a decoy convoy for PQ17 and others. They were ordered to sail north of the Arctic Circle and hopefully draw off the enemy bombers. It wasn't a success as we know but at the time it was considered a one way ticket!!!

When I was talking with him a few weeks ago, I told Jeremy how good people thought his programme on the St Nazaire raid was - and he hoped that we'd enjoy the PQ17 one just as much.

Well, personally I thought it was very good indeed. Thanks, JC!

Another fine programme he made was 'The Victoria Cross: For Valour'. In it, amongst other accounts, he described the heroism of Maj. Robert Cain during the Battle of Arnhem...

Cain was Jeremy's father-in-law; his wife was unaware of her father's VC until after he passed away, because it seems "He never thought to mention it"....

Just this once.....Top Gear, JC, Russian Convoy......and the connection to things Aircrew is.....? Would not this be more appropriate elsewhere? As we don't talk about Women Infantry Marines....surely Top Gear and JC don't fit either.

There's the Military Aviation connection for you SASless ;)

Arnhem was also of course the scene for Flt Lt David Lord's VC.

Seconded that it was a (nother) good JC programme.


Keeping Pound in post does not reflect well on WSC. He was not even replaced as Chairman of the CoS Committee until March 1942.

HMS Fencer's flight deck being cleared of snow during an Arctic convoy operation. Two Fairey Swordfish of 842 Naval Air Squadron aft on the flight deck:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...aring_snow.jpg

My father-in-law was on HMS Liverpool:

On 25 May, Liverpool began escorting PQ 16, a convoy of 35 merchant vessels bound for Murmansk, the largest convoy yet undertaken in support of the Soviet Union. PQ 16 had considerable protection, including the light and heavy cruisers Nigeria, Kent, and Norfolk, and numerous destroyers and submarines, with distant cover provided by the Home Fleet.[54] Inevitably, the convoy came under attack, beginning with a sortie on the 25th that damaged the freighter SS Carlton. Sustained attacks from U-boats and at least 242 German aircraft yielded a total of seven vessels sunk on the 26th and 27th.

Then:

HMS Liverpool returned to the Mediterranean in June to participate in Operation Harpoon, part of the Malta Convoys. While assigned to Force W covering convoy WS 19 on 14 June, Liverpool and the convoy came under attack by at least 38 Axis aircraft.

Just too few escorts stretched too far.

After the experience of PQ17, 2 Squadrons of Hampden torpedo bombers were sent to Russia to counter the threat of Tirpitz against PQ18. My father was a pilot on 144 Sqn. One of the pilots of the other Squadron, 455, was shot down en route to Russia and subsequently shared a room at Stalag Luft III with my uncle. It is noteworthy that the PoWs took OpSec seriously and did not discuss anything related to service matters where Germans might overhear them, that my uncle found out that my father had flown ops as part of the same torpedo bomber wing as his room mate.

The Hampdens were subsequently handed over to the Russians and my father returned home by ship and 144 Sqn was reformed as as Torbeau Sqn.

A really excellent programme and as has been stated, well presented by JC.
Amazing story re. the armed trawler leading the three American merchantmen through the ice.

My late Grandfather sailed with HMS Suffolk on a Russian convoy. All he would ever say was "bl00dy awful time" and how they had to use steam hoses to clear the ice from the guns before they became top heavy. Nothing else would ever be said about that voyage.

He also took part in Norway (bombed off Narvik), Dakar (torpedoed) and Malta and Atlantic convoys with HMS Resolution.

Aviation link - "RAF.....never bl00dy saw them"

As a sheer example of the tenacity of the crews of these ships, there is one story that I always come back to that of the brave Jervis Bay and her crew, read their story here and that of the crew that came to their rescue.

HMS "Jervis Bay":Convoy HX.84. 5th November 1940:Research by David Bews:Highland Archives

The tale of the San Demitrio in that link also beggars belief

Nut, I read a book back in the early 50s which included the Jervis Bay. I don't recall the detail of the other stories except one covered the epic 107 days in a lifeboat.

NutLoose, thanks for the link ie Jervis Bay, what brave men they were.

Y'All might recall PQ-17 was the first joint US/UK Convoy and was under UK Command. American ships and crews were part of the merchant ships and crews and suffered losses as did the British ships.

The majority of the cargoes were American built tanks, trucks, weapons, and other supplies.

So....let's don't forget the jointness here as two thirds of the ships were US vessels.

Or....the 14 American Ships sunk and the 73 American Sailors that were killed.

Order of Battle....


Order of battle for Convoy PQ 17 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Interesting to note there was a freighter named "Winston-Salem" and the Battleship "North Carolina" were present.....my hometown and state represented.

The "Show Boat" (USS North Carolina) is a War Memorial in Wilmington, NC.

Some military aviation content: my late father in law was in the Fleet Air Arm 42 to 46. He was told he was going on the Arctic convoys, so got kitted out with all the cold weather gear etc. Where did he end up? Malta! He reckoned the heavy clothing made an excellent pillow.

A fair point about US involvement.
 

Yes a fair point well made in the programme, something I wasn't aware of until now. Brave men all.

If the scatter (nee dispersal) of PQ17 was truly the personal decision of one man, albeit the First Sea Lord, what were others at the Admiralty saying or doing? The only thing he was acting on was intelligence from a neutral (Sweden) country. It was counter to his own in house intelligence, nor was it confirmed by Norwegian Resistance sources, yet he removed the entire Escort (minus one minesweeper according to the prog, that brought in three Freighters!). Why did no-one oppose Pound's bizarre decision, never mind if they knew or did not know of his medical condition? Even when Norway confirmed that Tirpitz had not budged, he still did not recall his Escorts. What did they say or do then?
The Air Ministry might have been a den of intrigue, but even that is preferable to those who say nothing at all, lest it hurt their careers.
Poor Show!

Hangershuffle - Do you know what was the exact title of the program?


I'd like to search BBC America to see if it'll make it to this side of the pond, but need to know what to look for http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...lies/smile.gif

As I read the history....Pound polled his staff and with the exception of Admiral Moore (Vice Chief of Naval Staff) all were against Dispersal. The Staff meeting lasted all day long with some breaks and interruptions.

Air Recce had shown the German ships to have left Trondheim and other intelligence reported them to be anchored in Altenfiord with no signs of departing.

Fleet Intelliigence (Submarine Tracking Unit) reported U-Boats were in the area where the Allied Cruisers would be withdrawing.

Pound appeared to not be persuaded by the information given him by Commander N. E. Denning re the location and status of the German surface units.

Pound's personally written Order was to disperse then a second Order was written upon realizing the correct Order was to "Scatter" rather than merely break formation and proceed indecently towards Murmansk.

The decision was wrong and resulted in the piecemeal destruction of the Convoy by German Aircraft and Submarines. Had more attention been paid to Air Recce to confirm the location of the German surface units.....perhaps the disaster could have been prevented.

The Admiralty kept a very tight Lid on the event.....as it was some time in 1949 before Churchill himself learned it was Pound who made the decision.

TD Racer. It's available as a torrent. Download and install uTorrent or similar.

PQ17 An Arctic Convoy Disaster is the title.

As usual there were not sufficient aircraft available for maritime surveillance. Sound familiar ?

Chug, ultimately command is a sole responsibility and not a democratic one.

What's that got to do with the price of fish? The Board spends all day discussing and all are opposed to the First Sea Lord, with one exception; so back to the other half with a "I'm home dear, what's for dinner?".
This order was unique, no other convoy had been ordered to scatter by the Admiralty. Can you imagine CAS ordering the Bomber Stream to scatter because he thinks that the Luftwaffe might be launching an Me262 NF variant that night, though no-one else does (bar one!)?
Call up Churchill and tell him, never mind the social niceties. The FSL has obviously lost his marbles and many lives and much treasure is at stake. This isn't a marginal, on the one hand but then again on the other, scenario. Nothing suggests that Tirpitz is out after PQ17, SigInt, Ultra, PR, nothing, except for one report from that very suspect source, a neutral country. Somebody needed to man up and go over Pound's head. Nobody did. The integrity of Naval High Command remained intact. The integrity of PQ17 ended up in tatters.
Poor Show!

Slight thread drift here, but Alistair McLean wrote an excellent book, HMS Ulysses, about the North Atlantic convoys. Although a work of fiction, it is based on his experiences as an ordinary seaman on Murmansk convoy escorts, and is based on PQ-17.

It's a story of survival against insurmountable odds, and MacLean describes an enemy "far more deadly than any mine or U-boat": the weather:
"Do you know what it's like up there, between Jan Mayen and Bear Island on a February night, Admiral Starr? Of course you don't. Do you know what it's like when there's sixty degrees of frost in the Arctic - and it still doesn't freeze? Do you know what it's like when the wind, twenty degrees below zero, comes screaming off the Polar and Greenland ice-caps and slices through the thickest clothing like a scalpel? When there's five hundred tons of ice on the deck, where five minutes' direct exposure means frostbite, where the bows crash down into a trough and the spray hits you as solid ice, where even a torch battery dies out in the intense cold? Do you, Admiral Starr, do you?"

This book is one of the best explorations of naval warfare I have read, and provides a unique perspective of what the men on those convoys went through.

Bob C

Potentially the leadership in place was such that one couldn't challenge decisions being made, even if wrong.

Don't know enough about leadership of RN in WW2 but time and again people were elevated or left in positions of power because of their name or connections.

Once again, I seem to not understand a word of your post, racedo.

Er, yes one can by er... challenging them!

Any elevating done to Pound seems well earned. He commanded a ship at Jutland and did well overseeing the Battle of the Atlantic:-
Dudley Pound - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

He was however very unwell. The Brain Tumor that he died of was already diagnosed by the time he scattered PQ17. He was also kept awake at night by a painful hip. He was not fit for the job (or any job?) and should have been medically retired. I imagine that the fault lay with the RN Medical Service at the time. Why didn't they pull the plug on him?

Interestingly Churchill worked well with him, so was it another penalty of that great man's foibles? Whoever and wherever the decision taken to keep him in harness was in retrospect disastrous, but not for the reasons that you so cryptically espouse.

Recorded it and watched it tonight. If you have the opportunity to catch it on BBC iPlayer etc, then I strongly recommend it. Documentary TV at its very best and oh so moving. Jeremy Clarkson fronted a brilliant programme.

Junior officer challenging decorated War Admiral as per your quote.............who gets listened to and who gets sidelined even if correct ?

Again questioning someone who has achieved that rank can and would be career limiting for person doing it. Pulling plug on an illustrious career by questioning if someone is medically capable at time when all that is happening is defeats is not going to happen.

But you have highlighted how well he worked with Churchill which may have been what kept him in position.

Loyalty is something that Churchill understood given what he had been through.

Familiar with the RAF refusal to provide Coastal Command the assets it needed.....when the RN was fighting the U-Boats which were far more a threat at that time than what was going on in Germany.

That Bomber Fellow, who like so many Air Force types, thought Wars are won by Strategic Bombing when every study during and after WWII proved exactly the opposite.

Had adequate assets been provided, even at direct detriment to the bombing offensive, far more ships would have been saved from destruction and thousands of mariners would have been spared horrible deaths.....not to mention how much more material, supplies, weapons, vehicles,airplanes and petroleum would have made it to the UK and Russia.

What I find difficult is the idea that the escorts could not deal with the threat. With 2 battleships to one and a superior number of other ships I would say that the odds were on the allies side. Let's not forget that another KGV battleship had already taken part in the sinking of another Bismarck class.

Some 6 battleships and battlecruisers, 2 aircraft carriers, 13 cruisers, and 21 destroyers were ordered to sink the Bismarck though. Bismarck sank the Hood and seriously damaged the Prince of Wales; as Jeremy Clarkson explained in the programme, the PQ17 escorts would have been comprehensively out-gunned by the Tirpitz with its 8 x 15" main armament.

Quite how well the distant screen battelships USS Washington (9 x 16" main armament) and HMS Duke of York (10 x 14") would have fared against Tirpitz is open to doubt - it was only when a torpedo strike by FAA Swordfish rendered the Bismarck unmanoeuvrable that the RN was able to close sufficiently to finish her off.

Had Tirpitz been able to evade the Allied battleships and closed on PQ17, she would have been like a shark amongst minnows.

Perhaps the First Sea Lord followed the doctrine of Gen. Sir Anthony Cecil Hogmanay Melchett, "If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through."?

A certain officer called Nelson disobeyed his superior at Copenhagen with a perfect result.