Gibraltar
 

What do we think of this?
BBC News - UK 'reviewing' Gibraltar navy options following Spanish incident

Sun.

The British Gov't doesn't have the balls to call the Spaniard's bluff.

How many times have they done it now ?

They should take a leaf out the Iranians book, board them, seize the vessel and parade them on TV in really badly fitting suits. Then deport them.

Either that or see how long a fire hose takes to sink it. :E

It is time that UK PLC grew a set over this the Spaniards are starting to take the pi$$. They would probably only need to sink one.

Ivor.

I don't think it's entirely reasonable for us to attack a Spanish vessel just because it's in our waters, after all they're NATO allies & fellow members of the EU.

Those same facts should make them behave in a very different manner to Gibraltar though.

Ken

If the UK sent a warship into Spanish waters and were requested to leave
and didn't, they might not fire on it but I would bet the response would
be a lot more robust than the sitting off and doing nothing the UK does.

OK, if you don't want to sink it, send in the Marines to board it, take control
and steer it out of the waters and then leave, which is perfectly legal.

500,

Agree, I know sinking it would be a little extreme but it would bring a smile to my face:E. Single warning and if they don't comply board the vessel and impound it, however if the Guardia Civil vessels get involved in UK waters the it really is game on.

Ivor

"but it would bring a smile to my face"

It would mine as well :ok:


Are the "Guardia Civil vessels" really going to get that involved
against a British warship and a Company of British Marines ?

When the push comes to the shove, I somehow doubt it.

I see now that the Gibraltar Football Association has been accepted by FIFA.

However, during the next Euro Qualifiers they are not allowed to be drawn in the same group as Spain. I wonder why.

Their 'home' games will be played in Portugal until a suitable stadium is built.:8

Time to remind them that Trafalgar is just up the road to the west.

Perhaps we can also remind them what happened at Taranto - then contact the might of the Fleet Air Arm Museum to ferry our remaining torpedo strike asset. I'm sure we can arrange a moonlit night to sink a fishing boat . . . the transit time might be just manageable too.

That'll learn 'em.

A couple of limpet mines on the hull for a 0900 detonation
with suitable fireball and sinking clearly visible from Spain !

Maybe the French could do it ;)

Gibraltar
 

Yes! A scientific research vessel is in our territorial waters! Let's destroy it and kill all on board.

A very "George Dubya" approach to international diplomacy guys...

Anyway, I hardly think the presence of an oceanographic research vessel in British territorial waters can be described as "provocative", as if it were brimming with weapons or dumping toxic waste.

Unlawful yes, but let's have some perspective with regards to a proportioned response and no more talk of sinking the ships of one of our close European allies.

jc

So why do the Spanish have to send multiple (I think it was 3)
ARMED Guardia Civil vessels along to support it ????????

BTW, Up to 40 incursions a month ???

That is what I call taking the piss as someone above said it so well.

Sink them! Arrest them! Fire shots!?? NO NO NO, that's exactly what they want!

why this is happening? The Spanish economy is an utter shambles, unemployment is through the roof especially amongst the young, the govt are facing corruption scandals and making a total hash of dealing with these problems. They desperately want a reaction, footage of warships, military action, better still an over-reaction!

Gibraltar
 

I wouldn't believe all you read in the papers or online media. About the most reliable is the BBC but they are very good at purporting to have an impartial take on matters.

As for armed escorts, all security services in Spain are armed, including your shopping centre "mall cops". The Guardia Civil fulfil the role of the coast guard, and given the long history of naval "spats" between the two countries, why not have an escort in to and out of the waters. I'm not saying the incursion was legal under the laws of the sea as it clearly was not but an incursion by warship and a scientific vessel are two very different matters. I'm just suggesting we don't get all "American" and gung-ho about it.

Give 'em what they want - I mean it's not as if our military are busy is it?

You guys lost the concept of tongue in cheek irony or what?

Get your heads out of your arses - the view is much better. Thanks for the lessons in international diplomacy too, I don't know how we've managed all these years without your acute insights.

Gibraltar
 

And the smuggling of tobacco from Morocco to Gib and in to Spain is a big hole in the Spanish treasury, hence the increased border checks which seemed to spark the heightened tensions.

Many Gibraltarians have had a cushy deal since the 80s, going to Spain to work, buy property and use the healthcare system but without necessarily doing it above board with regards to Spanish tax law.

The prime minister said they're plugging the leaks everywhere which is fair enough I suppose. It's what we'd do if we were in that much trouble.

DD and jc
Totally agree but try not to upset the armchair admirals.

Substitute that word with "Argentinian", and there you have it.

Anyway, the UK government will always be looking over its shoulder at the million plus expats, and property owners in Spain, before taking any action.

The Spanish are pushing the boundaries to provoke a reaction and will continue to up the stakes until they get one. The Argies did exactly the same down south.

We need to be very careful how we respond and the use of lethal force would not be wise or acceptable. However, a company of RM in the garrison and a suitable naval vessel to catch and board illegal intruders, smugglers or Spanish provocateurs, would be a sign that we are serious.

Doing nothing is not an option.

Send in Greenpeace. They've got a bigger flotilla than us, and more balls.

Every incursion should result in a ban on Uk aircraft entering Spanish airspace. A few days of that and they go bankrupt...again, and a few Brits get to see more Kyle episodes.

We might also increase our stock of I-Pods for distribution to the navy!

"Doing nothing is not an option...!!". -er, why not?

If you encounter someone who's screwed up their life, drunk outside a pub, arms flailing for a fight, is it imperative to have one?

A huge amount of Spanish fruit and vegetables are imported into the UK every day.
These cargoes, their vehicles and personnel could be subject to the maximum "with prejudice" scrutiny allowed under EU law. Any with the slightest transgression should be turned round.
The scrutiny would obviously take several days for every cargo. If the cargo perishes then we will be very sad.

A few weeks of this and the Spanish would behave.

Also park a Type 45 in the territorial waters of Ceuta.

Have you considered the Brits living on the Costa's how they may suffer if this got really heavy?

Daz

I'm sure we'll send them a strongly worded rebuke in due course making
LIBERAL use of words like "unfortunate" and "regrettable" and alluding to the
displeasure felt by Her Majesty's (mighty) Britannic government.
The Spanish will recoil in terror and in true Pythonscue style cry "Run a-w-aa-y,"
as they scurry back to their paellas, suitably chastened.
Makes yer proud to be part of (modern) Britain. Don't it.
(I suspect the Israelis, for example, might handle the matter a tad err, differently? Shall we say)

The tobacco smuggling they talk about has nothing to do with Morocco. It is legally sold cigs in Gibraltar that are half the cost of Spanish. Same with booze. The Spanish DO make these incursions to provoke, trust me, they do. The civil guard shot at a gibbo in his Speedos on a jet ski recently, fact. THEY ARE PREPARED TO OPEN FIRE ON INNOCENTS. Not propaganda, fact.
They landed on a beach last year, armed, told the cops to f off! They would have no problem impounding a ship.
I visit my brother in law there regularly, I cross the border regularly, I speak the truth, unlike some here who have read the paper.
What I do agree with??????????? They WANT an incident to happen that involves gunfire. My solution would be a boarding by marines and an escort out of waters. A second incursion would be a seizing of the vessel, with IMMEDIATE contact with Spanish authorities to arrange collection of said vessel.

ShotOne

"Doing nothing is not an option...!!". -er, why not?

Because you can walk away from your drunk and he'll have a go at someone else. We cannot walk away from this and there is no likelihood that the Spaniards will sober up. The bolder the incursions they make, the harder the response and the messier the outcome. Act early and firmly. A lesson we should have learned from 1982.

I hate to sound like an appeaser, but the situation is Gib is rather more nuanced than the papers would have us believe. Such clear emotional rhetoric is easy at a distance but when you are there trying to work these issues it is far more difficult. HMG has a narrow tightrope to walk between Spain... a fellow NATO and EU member... and the Gibraltarians - who have a very specific agenda. Neither party is blameless and both are playing this situation for all they are worth. My experience of Gib is of not being able to trust either side and, far from being 'plucky Brits', the Gibraltarians will scheme and undermine any HMG initiative if it suits them... in the same way that they will side with Spain if it suits them. The fond "Ah, thats how they do it here... it's just Gibraltar" usually means activity that elsewhere would probably be called bribery and corruption. One must also remember that Gib is not an EU member so 'reasonable' border checks are to be expected (... I'm not condoning the current nonsense) - and also tobacco smuggling is not a cottage industry of a few old ladies taking a pack of 100 home to their villa... it is HUGE... smuggling on an industrial scale.

That said, Spain is obviously trying to pull a Galtieri to distract its voters from the economic situation at home and its current behavious is ridiculous and unconscionable.

Final piece of the puzzle... Gib costs HMG a vast amount of cash for, currently, limited benefit. This includes significant sponsorship of an airfield.

HMG has to play two mediterranean personalilties and has to balance the wishes and rhetoric of 30,000 Gibraltarians against the several orders of magnitude greater economic relationship with Spain. Diplomacy is the way... always has been...

Interesting. Given we support the wishes of a couple of thousand Falklanders and back their right to self determination, and given the overwhelming Gibraltarian vote to remain British (self determination) then it's surely about time we told Spain (EU/NATO "partner" or not) to ram it, or we put something in there big enough to ram them.

Doing nothing really is not an option. But then with Cleggy as deputy PM a europhile and with a Spanish wife I guess we we'll do .............


nothing.

North Front

All my joking/cynicism apart . . . well said and well reasoned. Thank you.

According to Wiki, Gib is part of the EU, but not part of Schengen. It is rather nuanced.
Special member state territories and the European Union - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Just a thought but if the Dons won't abide by the Treaty of Utrecht, why don't we just rip up the Treaty of Amiens and take Minorca back? The Minorcans might find theirselves better off at the moment, rather like Mozambique now benefitting from Commonwealth membership.

Seriously, though, North Front seems to make some good points. Aunty Betty's nieces and nephews on the Rock do seem keen to play poke the bear with a stick at the moment. Something that puzzles me is, if Pedro is fussed about contraband entering Gib, why are the queues so long for traffic trying to get in? Also, how many thousand ciggies can you get in your average saloon car without it being obvious to even a quick glance?

The Spanish are playing with fire with these incursions but it doesn't help that the Govt of Gibraltar stoutly denies any smuggling is going on when everyone knows it's a major industry

Remove the tax from cigarettes - problem solved!

Good eh?

Stop Benefits for spongers, legalise drugs - no need for borders at all!

Yes I know I'm being ridiculous, but tell me this dispute isn't.

Worlds full of crazy leaders again.
 

If so much as one drop of blood is spilt by either side it will be an unmitgated disaster, and further proof if needed we are all run by maniacs, both us and them. Situation calls for cool heads both sides.
Every day I read stuff like this just reinforces my prayers that beyond these posing crazy madmen some good decent people remain to try and steer the leaders from the rocks.

Sell it...and that other Sh1thole in the South Atlantic. Give the jocks, sheep sh@ggers and Trelawny's Army independence.

Move parliment and the English government to Scouse land.

Build a big **** off wall around the M25 and declare London an independent city state, with Boris in charge as a dictator for life.

Sorted

Board them, remove all jewellry booze, foodstuffs, weapons, fishfinding electronics, personal electronics etc etc, to the value of a big fine for incursion without border controls. Arrest and jail any dissidents.

Try this crap in Russian waters!

CG