Aircrew knife - HELP!!
 

Hi there!!!
Im doing a university dissertation on the proposed replacement for the current issue aircrew knife, the 'MK 1 cutter'. Im after any opinions or information regarding this piece of kit. Do you think it needs replacing? Do you as aircrew carry an additional knife (if so which one)? Have you used it for its intended purpose? what kind of knife would you prefer? Plus anything else you feel is relevant.
Thank you in advance of your help.

"....a university dissertation on the proposed replacement for the current issue aircrew knife...."

Please tell me you're kidding? Dare one ask what degree course you're on?

Covert - Double Bevel 154CM, Black, Serrated

I always carried one of these. It was a perfect fit in the flying suit knife 'pocket'. Could also be carried quite comfortably as a boot knife.

Please tell me you're kidding? Dare one ask what degree course you're on?

Nope, not kidding, degree is in applied aviation studies. we had to pick a project to do our dissertation on and this seemed fairly easy.

well, in the 1970's, we used to carry an aircrew knife that had a straight blade on it. This was the preferred style. However, it was decided that in order to avoid puncturing the dingy and to aid skinning when in survival mode that it should be relaced with this one (around the mid to late 80's).

http://i1142.photobucket.com/albums/...gDit/knife.jpg

Basically, you could do more with the straight blade but they didn't like us playing with knives! I believe the current issue is even more useless.

Back in the early days of the Sentry (1990s), we were issued with the old curved blade dinghy knife. It was (quite literally) a pain. The mission crew carried the mission paperwork onto the aircraft in large metal "suitcases" which were both heavy and at "knife height" causing an almost permanent bruise on the outer thigh and occasional damage to the knife (the black handle broke off one in flight and therefore was a FOD hazard). The knife also frequently snagged the mission crew seats causing tears to the fabric and occasionally rips to the flying suit. Seeing as the E-3D did not carry a parachute (and ditching a 707 with its scoop engines is not recommended) we wrote a case for the mission crew not to wear the knife, although a knife had to be carried for flight (I had a 3" very sharp pocket knife bought from a USAF BX in my survival kit). The CSRO was not happy initially, but after we had pointed out that we wore orange survival suits for ditching and the flying suit knife was therefore completely inaccessible then he was convinced that we need not wear it day to day and it was better in a survival bag.

Unfortunately although we did not have to have the knife attached, the survival equipment section refused to remove the knife patch from the mission crew flying suits (the AP stated that it had to be there and therefore there it would be - even if no knife was attached). All went well for a few months until we got a new Station Commander who demanded that we wear knives again because an empty patch looked untidy! Back to bruises it was and the aircraft seat covers had to be regularly replaced because of excess wear. (The same Stn Cdr also banned us from wearing brown warm weather flying boots because he did not like to see crews with a mix of brown and black boots, but that is another story).

Moral of the story.... one type of survival knife may be good for fast jet/ejection seat compatibility, but it can be completely unsuitable for those of us in more luxurious "airliner" surroundings. One type does not fit all!

It could be more significant to do your dissertation on what pocket knives the technical groundcrew carry and use.

I always did, and still do carry a Swiss Army knife. The 'features' were selected for their suitabillity while I was an Air Radar Fitter, and fixed many a small problem on an a/c without having to resort to lugging a full toolkit around with me.

Old knife - 1980s, was not very secure. My UAS instructor's knife + sheath came out & slipped down the side of the seat unseen (See Pingdit's pic - the press stud came undone). On the subsequent solo aeros, I got knifed in the head during a reverse stall turn. Fortunately it was still sheathed & hit me on the side of the bonedome. Even more fortunately, I'd been very well taught & remembered to recover to S&L before sorting out the problem.

I recommend the Canadian Army Knife, by Grohmann, partly because I have one & am very happy with it, and partly 'cos they're made locally, with love ;)

Only ever used mine to open bottles of beer, and it was pretty pap at that as I recall :hmm:

Do remember trialling the Machete in the PSP vs the venerable Wilkie knife - that was a serious improvement and way more useful...

Surely, the knife was secured by the length of nylon thread that held it to the patch? No, I thought not! Back to the Sentry - the thread was often snagged by the seat adjusting mechanism which broke the locking cotton and pulled the string away from the patch, leaving the operator with many feet of trailing string (often happened when deploying on a practice crew emergency drill). Completely useless!

Ian16th. Carrying personal knives (or tools) whilst working on an AC is an accident waiting to happen, as well as breaking regs.:=

http://www.historicflyingclothing.com/myarchive/633.jpg

Weren't supposed to wear them in the Chipmunk for fear of upsetting the compass (that's the old P type compass between the knees) ... most did though through a sense of self preservation should it have been necessary to cut the seat straps to get away from a burning aircraft :eek:

Also ... very good for laying turf ... so I'm told :)

Am I correct in assuming that this is the MK1 Aircrew Strap Cutter under consideration ?

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/...psb4d55f15.png

If so ... it looks like Elf & Safety don't want aircrew playing with anything too dangerous these days :}

That knife wasn't "mid to late '80s". It was being issued as early as 1981.

That was the first iteration after the traditional style knife. The next iteration was a blunt point which made its use as a can opener even less useful.

I remember we resisted the change and hung on to the earlier one as long as we could.

The Aircrew Knife
 

It's main uses were for scooping teabags out of the Nimrod teapot - curved blade made it ideal for that - and (just about) cutting pizza. :8

This knife sticks in my memory as one of the most useless tools I've ever come across. While it might seem a blindingly silly question, what's it for? I was told for puncturing an accidentally deployed liferaft then the new, literally pointless, one came out. It's almost useless as a survival knife as issued to US forces so we're talking about cutting parachute shrouds in a dinghy situation? In which case why not look along the lines of some of the excellent yachting rescue knives made by Gerber (no I don't work for them) which, while razor sharp, (designed for hi tech fibre like dyneema so goes through paracord like spaghetti) have a rounded tip which won't easily puncture a raft.

But think back to the original dinghy knife. It had a flame orange handle, a curved blade perforated along its short concave curved length and terminated in a properly rounded end. If you were tempted to test its sharpness you would cut your finger.

Of course its main purpose was to cut the painter from your sinking machine.

From a maintainers POV the MK.1 Cutter is okay, its job is to cut parachute rigging lines (i.e. Typhoon kevlar lines) and straps, with a secondary function of stabbing life preserver stoles/liferafts to deflate them (I'm told this was included as a result of GW.1 shot down aircrew experience). The only down side is it has moving parts, which means it could potentially cause a FOD hazard.. and you have to stitch it's retainer pouch on to lots of gear..:zzz:
Perhaps 'Flyboys' could produce a combined kneeboard/flI-pad/knife?:E

I joined in 1981 as a University Cadet and that iteration of the knife was bloody useless for most things. However I did carry it on my 58 Pattern Webbing (on the Left Ammo Pouch bayonet frog IIRC) when I was out on Exercise with the UOTC because it was bloody brilliant at opening Compo tins. Stab, twist and the tin is open! The Army took the piss right up until they saw how fast I could get into a canned baby's head!

Having said that, I rapidly sourced an earlier (straight bladed) dinghy knife for use when flying on the UAS. Unfortunately, when I got to BFTS the F/S Squipper confiscated it and gave me one of the blunt things.

He also changed my Mk 3C helmet from Medium to the Small size (because he thought he knew best) which caused me untold problems with headaches. He then attempted to deny me a Q mask (anti-allergenic), again on the grounds that he knew best.

Right up until the Medics got involved that was.

Then again he was a particularly 'bandaged headed' individual so I guess he wanted us to experience his pain.....

The convex bladed aircrew knife was believed to pose too great a threat of accidentaly puncturing floatation devices in the hands of aircrew that were only allowed to use blunt-nosed scissors in real life. Hence the concave blade on the trditional version pictured above.

It could, given enough time, cut paracord and webbing, but it was really best for sharpening pencils, which we weren't allowed to carry in the aircraft.

That’s not a knife…THAT’S a knife

http://www.screeninsults.com/images/...dee-knife2.jpg

:E

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

You mean 'Self-Loading Freight'?

Cough

Sorry, members of SODCAT......

I didn't think SLF were allowed to carry knives on board. :ok:

Depends whether you get chance to search the buggers!

No need to, Mate. That's what the infallible RAF Police security is for. I only managed to get an unlicensed firearm past them once in my life - even though it was in a box with a big Day-Glo tag on it stating "Unloaded Firearm" that came in on the Brize baggage carousel.

That's how good they are.

The only knife I had was the one out of a seat with a fold out blade, can opener and flat screwdriver built in, the one with no grips on it. Still have it :)

Suprised if they went with the pure strap cutter design above in Coffs post they never made it truly multifunctional like this, it would make a lot of sense.

Sheffield Moab Folding Rescue Knife, pocket knife, car escape tool, car escape knife, folding pocket knife, seatbelt cutter

Dinghy knives and the like. We were issued the curvedy-blade job shown in post #5 , with orange sheath, std issue, when i started flying training in 1972 odd. Later obtained the straight blade version from a friendly squipper after I donated 5 quid to their coffee fund. It still adorns my retired flying suit.
In training I carried a WW2 commando dagger inside my flying suit and a boy scout clasp knife in my ankle pocket, with other survival stuff. When training was over, I grew up and retired the Fairbairn dagger.

I've only once heard of the knife being used for its intended purpose, cutting rigging lines and the like. On that occassion the gent in question who was, I'm sure still a bit disorientated after going from his cosy F3 to the North Sea in about a minute, managed to also hack his dinghy canopy to bits.
I always thought that a cutter like in Coffs image was better. It holds what you're cutting which would help loads with cold wet slippery hands.



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PingDit,

The change from straight to curved blade occurred sometime in the early '70's: I still have mine from 1975 and it's a curved blade with a nice stabbing tip! The original knife patch (sewn onto the ovies) was a dull yellow/orange, unlike the green one in the photo.

Then again I still have a Mk 2a bonedome plus varied other rabbits.... which I find impossible to turf out, despite being quite useless and taking up too much space!

My twopenneth on aircrew knives:

Latest Mk1 is by far the best for what it is designed for: cutting seat straps, parachute straps and rigging lines. However, as a knife in survival it is plain sh!te.

Older curved types were as already stated: clunky, normally blunt when you wanted to use it and also sod all use in a survival situation. I was once stopped at Cardiff Airport by Security having diverted into there in a live Q jet - I had to give up the curved knife to go and make a phone call, even after protesting that the Queen trusted me to fly 8 missiles and 170 rounds of ball and tracer around the UK, would it not be ok to carry a pants knife??? I ended up surrendering the knife! :ugh:

As to suggestions: I would suggest a j-knife in the same way as the current Mk1 cutter but with a longer, retractable and lockable blade for survival purposes (and stabbing the stole of your LSJ if you need to).

LJ

Basil,
I think you have chosen a difficult assignment. As you will have noted from the above comments how contentious this matter is.

I was only an occasional flyer (observer on trials) I consider myself quite disciplined. My knife was secured in its clip with a red tell tale thread. I was told never to get it out unless it was essential. I just trusted the briefing I received that it would cut harnesses and cord should the need arise.

When the small J knife was introduced there was great reluctance towards it. One specialist group of people at Lyenham at the time (Air Despatch) had dispensation to have both types (one on each leg) they claimed the need to routinely use the standard issue knife in pursuit of their duties. most of them used their own personal choice of "weapon" anyway but were aware of the "rules" on tool control. A far better tool for their job was what was known as the Air Sea Rescue knife. A very chunky J knife with a T handle. the blade was like a Stanley blade in the little cutter but much thicker (you will find one of these in each HUPRA pack - for cutting static lines - see the reluctant parachutist thread). Unfortunately it was not practical for these to be attached to your grow bag leg. They really would bruise you as reported above on Sentry.

I believe there is a proper Swiss army knife in each seat survival pack. You could probably but one for £25 from Millets. we paid £70 as they had the NATO code marked on them making them proprietary to one particular supplier who held the type record for the engraving of the NATO stock code (yes we went to such stupid lengths to maintain configuration control- I know you could not make it up and I never supported this). Of course these were P&L class stores and the number was engraved to stop folks nicking them. It would have been far cheaper to give every member of the Armed Services two each when they signed on.

I hear the Apache crews do not have a personal cutter but there may be a heavy duty one strategically placed on the door frame (not sure if this is true)

I did not know the Eurofighter escape parachute lines were that exotic. I know the brake chute is. We had some even tougher reefing cords to cut to sequence the deployment of some stores parachutes which needed a pyrotechnic (explosive charge) to cut through they really were that tough.

Best of luck with your studies. However I do think this issue would be more suited to someone studying psychology rather than aeronautics. How about a study on the effect on directional stability of all the sat com aerials on top of the new Rivet Joint.

Leon ...

I've got just the thing for you old chap :ok:

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/...ps1db2924b.jpg

:E

Carrying a knife, non-ferocious in the event that the harness box jammed seemed a bit pointless when you could simply unfold the velcro-secured end of the strap and pull it through the adjuster, and without the fear of poking yourself in the eye with a blunt instrument.

Coff

This is probably more appropriate given tommorrow's shenanigans...

http://www.disasterstuff.com/store/p..._6_lbs_350.jpg

:eek:

DCTYKE
We all appreciated the foreign object problems, but carring a pocket knife wasn't against the rules in my day.
We also each had our own toolkits.
There were several different schemes tried to identify the users of tools. Even to the extent of engraving each item in a toolkit.

The communal tools and shadow boards were being experimented with in ASF, but not on the sqdns.

And Civi wise you have your own tools. Trust me the best form of tool control is having to pay for them, trust me loosing a screwdriver at over £60 a pop makes sure you don't.

Times change, I wouldn't even think of taking my own knife out to a jet. The first thing we did on being called out to a snag was empty our pockets. As for our tools, even the needles were accounted for on the shadow board. I grew up with that system so I accepted it as just being the way it always was.

I think your Army logic might be lost here. :}

oh dear........apologies mate!