It was still head and shoulders above the norm.

Agreed -- far better than I'd expected, with some good interviewees - doesn't 'young' Lord Stockton look like his dad (bar the whiskers); and, of course, the phlegmatic Winkle, a truly fearless aviator. I hope the next episode is as good. I learned a good deal from this first one.

You think the would still remove them even if the seat is inert, a bit like calling 3 Greens on fixed wing aircraft, leaving pins in because seats are inert might one day catch someone out in a live seat aircraft and I cannot see any reason not to remove them, in an emergency would you know the seats were inert and could indeed have a placard by the pins.

Just watching tonight's programme. Apart from the commentator not knowing what a barrel roll is, fascinating stuff.

Have I seen any PPRuNers tonight?

Another excellent program, quite a few shots I've not seen before.

Didn't like the bit where he spoke over Churchill's speech as that made it slightly more difficult to hear.

Would also liked to have seen a more more on the Lightning

Did chuckle slightly when the Cuba alert clip was shown with a missile with "Drill" painted on it and when they spoke of a Lincoln being shot down in the Berlin corridor and showed a B17.

I really enjoyed that. Although I was relieved at the end to discover I missed nowt special at Wembley in the meantime.

Unfortunately the same journo view on the TSR2.. "It was a traversty being axed", not that it was a dogs dinner of a specification that was never likely to be fulfiled even by the best efforts of BAC.. Shame the Empire of the Clouds wasn't transfered into a documentary..

I thought that was very silly - the only jarring note in an otherwise good programme.

Sergei Kruschev showed himself to be a man of taste and discernment when he said that of the three V Bombers he had seen at an airshow, he was particularly impressed by the Victor ;) Seriously the Victor B1 in anti-flash white really did look like something out of the future!

A shame that the U-2 segment didn't include Martin Bee, even though he appeared in the Lightning segment....

Sergei Khruschev seems a fascinating chap - he must have a lot of tales to tell!

I was rather amused that the 'post-release' segment about getting back to the UK was obviously filmed in a Jet Provost!

But overall, a refreshingly good programme. But it's a pity that there isn't enough Victor footage available to avoid the use of Victor tanker clips in bomber documentaries...

If an aircraft( Victor /Vulcan) was on QRA during ground icing conditions how was it de-iced in time to launch within the QRA window.?

What happened to 558? All we saw was the forlorn and forgotten Woodford Vulcan. They should have also covered the loss of the Vulcan over Syerston and the leading edge mod.

I wpuld have liked to see the TSR2 piece go onto Harrier, Jaguar and Tornado - the Cold War didn't finish in the 70s!

I enjoyed the program, but it is, to me, unfinished. I also noticed the horrific B17 error and also the drill round. Nice to see RPE and Tom Eeles, though :ok:

LJ

So why not finish the story? What about the tactical nuclear stuff?

Far too much about the V-Force for me!

I agree, surely a 3rd episode covering the late 70s and 80s is a must! They mentioned that the Lightning was retired a year before the Wall came down so why not go onto the development and use of Tornado/Harrier/Jag /Buccaneer/Phantom etc...?

Leon, hundreds of years ago (it seems) I worked with Mrs. RPE, she was far too nice for him, even though he was a nice bloke.

Yes some good footage but far too much waffle. It didnt really need as much 1960's scene setting. That time could have been given over to other aircraft. Oh, and 'only the best crews were chosen to fly in the V bombers' .... not how I remember it!!:sad:

Just watched the first episode thanks to iPlayer and about to watch second.

I personally didn't think the Provost was too heavily featured, in fact I thought some of the cinematography was stunning.

Also just Wiki'd Eric Winkle Brown. Being ex FAA I'd heard of him but until tonight never knew his career. Notwithstanding the vagaries of wiki... a truly remarkable man and career

I've found what Part 3 should be on You Tube - Jags, Buccs, TSR2, Vulcans, Victors and Tornado all included. All that BBC would need to do is re-dub it!


LJ :ok:

You have to read his book 'Wings on my sleeve.'
It's excellent.


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They were deiced regularly. I remember one night the QRA crews themselves used a Landrover with dozer blade keeping the dispersal clear while the ground crew kept the route from dispersal to runway open.

One crewman managed to drive the dozer in to a snow drift. His relief complained that he had had to spend an hour digging it out again.

I am not aware of at any time during my time of a station going black for QRA.

IIRC that was a film clip of a QB17 shot down by a Nike test vehicle. I can't remember if it was a clip on general release or one we were shown during training.

That depends on the period. By the time you joined the V-force it was well on the way to becoming a routine assignment with first tour captains, copilots made up to captains and general talk of dilution.

Before that, 50s and early 60s it was certainly true. Copilots with 1000 hours, nav radars with a one-year NBS course, plotters with a previous Canberra tour or more. Some crews transferred en mass from Valiant to Vulcan.

I flew with Pete West for a period. Getting back to the UK was a euphemism for post-flight recovery.

Some aircraft had routes that were sufficiently short so they could recover direct but most had recovery bases in Norway, Denmark and Turkey.

Certainly in the 50s and early 60s crews carried the addresses and telephone numbers for the embassies on each country and were instructed to phone home. I think the expectation early on was that the nuclear strike would not have been an absolute as overkill had yet to be established.

They were quite right that nuclear gave more bang for the buck, who could argue at £1/ton?

Is that a missile that could be fitted to trainers?

The clip is also used during the "World At War" series so it has been in the public domain for quite a while.

I got it wrong - Stockton is Mac's grandson. Now that does make me feel old.

I recall several navs, on my Canberra Sqdn, not relishing their posting to 'V's, mainly due to the lack of ejection seats.

Pontius
No offence Pontius, but as a non V force guy I couldnt resist the wind-up!

Noticed my old S Cerney V-Force Nav Flight Commander and also a well known ex Lightning Air Commodore.

Someone mentioned 'Head East', or something similar, as a final release. Without going into detail, ISTR that the bombers could be recalled at any time.

It was eight east - that was the go/no go line.

I heard that as "8 East", which I took to mean longitude 8 degrees East as the point after which the attack was irrevocable.

But I am sure P-N or others can confirm.

Are you referring to Aubrey Clayphan, Basil? He became a flight commander on Victor tankers and famously ejected and commandeered the air conditioned room of a gobby shiny fleet loadmaster who unwisely made a remark about "tankertrash" as a tanker crew were making their way to their non air-conditioned rooms at Akrotiri!

Edited to say thanks t7a - you got the confirmation in before I posted it!

I can understand the usage of the Woodford one, (which incidentally is supposed to be part of a new Woodford museum) as it is the only one in anti flash white and relates to the period being discussed, as well as the airborne shots.

Then of course there is the last ever flight of the Victor in 2009..

t7a and Tankertrashnav,
Ah, "eight east" - thank you. Won't mention to SWMBO or I'll get even more flack about my auditory perception :)

That's Aubrey! :):ok:

t7a/TTN,

Quite right. I can't recall where it was for Cyprus however :)

During flight to dispersal after declaration of alert condition 1 crews not only remained radio silent but were instructed to have all radios switched off 'to avoid getting confusing messages'. On the dispersal flight the weapon could not be dropped live and there was insufficient fuel for a war mission.

One confusion could be hearing the QRA and main base aircraft being scrambled. The other, slightly less confusing, could the dawning of the sun in the west etc.

However once cocked and then launched on an authenticated scramble the crews would head east as stated. In the event of not receiving an authenticated go message the instructions were to return to take-off airfield.

Now the Release may have been issued and not received because of jamming or the transmitters being destroyed or indeed the command centres destroyed before the release was authorised.

There were, as far as I know, no instructions on what to do if on returning west you saw only a nuclear holocaust. Would you do as in Doctor Strangelove and retaliate or would you obey orders to the end, reach the UK, and then . . .

Just watched on iPlayer ... very good I thought :ok:

Well done Tom Moriarty ... :D

Tom's original request for PPRuNe help

There would certainly have been scope for another 2 parts. Aside from the passing references to the USAF other noticeable bits that were either not mentioned or merely skipped over were the Hunters and Javelins the backbone of the UK Air Defence before the Lightning, the Sea Vixen, Buccaneer and Scimitar for maritime, the VC10! Then later Air Defence with the F4 and attack with Jaguar, Harrier, Buccaneer.

I suppose, looking in the round, the first part was the British leadership in jet engines and then it was concentrated on design with the attack and defence aspects of the Cold War with our nuclear deterrent and the associated air defence on the one hand and the Russian on the other.

Thank you for your reply on the winter operations aspect of the V-force Pontius

I thought it was rather good.

Agree partly about TSR2, though there is still the fact that it did spell a particularly sharp downturn in UK aerospace - perhaps they was room for de-scoping the rather extreme requirements and carrying on, as opposed to complete cancellation.

Given the depth of knowledge of many prruners it was actually quite accurate. I think you can forgive the Lincoln / B17 footage - they were showing what was available. The only bit that counted as unfortunate footage for me was the introductory narrative on ICBMs, then cutting to a picture of a Nike/Hercules SAM, though it did quickly show a Thor soon after.

Interesting to see a Blue Steel drop, never seen that. I looked to see if there is any Blue Steel launch/rocket start footage on the net, but could find none. I wonder if there is actually no footage out there?

Always good to see some shiney Lightnings of course.

As in part 1 it was truly dreadful. That piece where both he and Churchill were talking out of synch was offensive. No mention of tactical nuclear or even the Short Sperrin but I'm not surprised. The series is simply inept. Again more inappropriate footage. I suppose the BBC consider him to be one of their rising stars.....

Rose, I think you are too harsh.

I think I can detect the dead hand of bureaucracy here. 'Sorry old boy, just not enough interest for more than a couple of parts, keep it down to under two hours, OK?'

The scope was huge and while we experts can criticise the addition of this or the exclusion of that, I think on balance it was a brave effort pulling in much rare footage.

Yes, we would have done it differently, but would we have done it better?

PN, with respect The Crankies or the Chuckle Brothers could have made a better fist of it! I'm sure many of us would have taken more trouble.

Rose, I fear you are far too harsh.

It seems fairly sure your version would have been too dull & detailed for the masses, which at the end of the day is who this is aimed at.

I'd love to see more niche programmes however, such as "history of air drop since WW2" or similar. A programme covering the technologies, operations, mishaps, people etc, would work well.

JFZ90 wrote