Females are under-represented in the workplace and males are under-represented in Labour wards. (In hospitals, I'm not talking politics.)

So what?

She is the first female to make 2-star rank in the Air Force and for that she deserves congratulations.

One or 7 people have flown across the Channel since Bleriot did so, but he's still famous for being the first.

But there lies the problem, she isn't the first to make 2-star - the media are telling porkies (as usual).

LJ

As briefed by source;

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/t...r-vice-marshal

I suppose we could have the argument about the WAAF, WRAF and RAF; different T&Cs etc etc. I personally don't recollect a female RAF officer of 2 Star rank.

As I said earlier in the thread. Up until 1994 there were no women in the RAF, because they were in the WRAF until 1920, no women at all between 1920 and 1938 (apart from the Princes Mary's RAF Nursing Service which has been going throughout from 1918 to present day), the ATS in 1938, the WAAF from 1939 until 1949 and the WRAF from 1949 to 1994. All the these made up the Air Forces of Great Britain, just like the Royal Navy, Royal Marines, etc... Make up the Naval Service of Great Britain.

From what I can see there have been 4x 2-stars serving full-time and also a 4-star who was Princes Alice who was the CinC of the WRAF until her passing. Now if there was a WRAF or WAAF these days then this latest 2-star would have been definately in it, as they no longer exist she is in the RAF. "Semantics" I hear? Yup, but she is most certainly not "the first female to make 2-star in the Air Force" and the others were all full-time and definately not part-time reserves as some seem to be insinuating.

LJ

PS. Once again, I am not patronising, be-littling or devaluing AVM West's fantastic achievement, it's just that headlines are misleading and is spinning a story that is not true.

SASless is really plumbing the depths of unnecessary bad taste and offensiveness these days. Pity. His posts used to be worth reading. Male menopause?

Anyone got Elaine and Stringy's e-mail details? please PM me if you have.

Jerry Gegg

Geggy - DCO. See PM.

.

Small point but there were women in the RAF prior to 1994 - all the doctors and dentists were RAF and definitely not WRAF!!

Fortunately I spent my 30 years in a Branch where women were normal (as in simply other human beings who did the same job as the blokes).

Indeed, back in the early 90s (as Branch/Trade sponsor) I responded to a letter asking about female quotas. I was very happy to be able to respond that "the ATC Branch and Trade has no quota ... We take the best man/woman for the job."

I was surprised to note that others had quotas. We managed to amortise officer training before the ladies managed to trap a handsome member of aircrew (I believe there were some) before departing the fix :cool:

There was a good reason for that....boy, the shelves must have been big in ATC ;):E

Rather than complaining that she's not the first 2-star in the RAF, modern or otherwise, can't we just celebrate the fact that an evidently well-liked and talented RAF officer is currently the most senior woman in the armed forces, royalty excepted?

Not really, as the RAF was broadly gender-neutral, IME, apart from the Master Race of course. She just happens to be a good chap with a lumpy jumper, and I would say no more than that. :cool:

There were the Good, the Bad and the Ugly … and the Rather Overweight. But IME very few utter dogs. The Flying Prevention Branch tended to attract ladies with personality and an affinity to aviation. And, apart from one incompetent cow, I never had any problem with them - from LAC upwards.

As a bit of "reverse polarity", I 'acquired' an ex-Admin Sec as a first-tourist flt lt ATCO - a very late transfer of Branches. She was under confident at first, so having shovelled her through the training mill I gave her a few months - and then selected her for training as a Watch Supervisor. She protested … "I'm a first tourist" I wasn't interested … she had the brains and the maturity. Some 3-6 months later, she was a superb Watch Sup. Cheers, Liz :ok:

Wot Courtney, baff and Genstab said!

Rgds SOS

Bless, male menopause too? Let me guess, all of you short in stature, >1 wife?

If it's all about best person for the job, I look forward to reading about AVM West getting her third star in a few years on posting to Air Sec, replacing AM Wiles' replacement...or is first non-aircrew Air Sec even more difficult than first(ish) woman AVM...

?

Air Sec is a 2-star and the current incumbent is not aircrew.

AMP&C is a 3-star and aircrew.

Unfortunately, government departments have not just to be even handed with equality - they have to be seen to be even handed with equality, hence the way this news story has been promulgated. I suppose that the most derisory example of this was whenever joint management glossies were released with the photographs of four serving officers on the front cover: the RAF officer was black, the army officer was female, leaving the reader to guess whether it was the naval officer or the marine who was gay.

Climebear

It's a fair cop...didn't do my staff work thoroughly. Think I was getting Air Sec and AMP confused....

As AMP seems to have become a dual appointment with Deputy Commander Air Command then always aircrew.

Maybe Air Sec for her next tour...she's at least one tour left (51).

The wasted talent in years gone by is a crime in retrospect...there was an amazing ADSecPol in the late 70s (married to a Rock) but ISTR forced to leave when family started. Asked about returning mid 80s and told that she'd have to return on demotion to sqn ldr and that would be it.....

lj101
 

No wot I said was

Blimey I thought you were my mate.....there's no such thing as the male menopause because men don't have a mens....l cycle. Motor cycle, bicycle, unicycle and even life cycle perhaps.

Still congratulations to AVM West.

Rgds SOS

I see that another fine officer has been promoted to the one-star ACOS Trg role in 22Gp. Not aircrew and not male!

ACOS Trg
 

So now working for the AVM much criticised by the ET chair in the discrimination case on another thread.....

New ACOS Trg is a cracking officer whom I know.

However, also subject to the same gripe of no campaign medals as Air Traffickers rarely deploy (although one did work for me in the sandpit a couple of years ago).

Should a small level of front line operational experience exclude you from the starred ranks by not being able to discuss/think at the strategic level about ops from a position of experience?

LJ

PS. Just had a PM from someone, so I thought I would clarify. I'm not digging at individuals regarding their op experience. However, I am asking the questionof whether we should ask our strategic leaders to have significant hands-on op experience? The fact that a large proportion of air traffickers have not deployed very much is not a dig at them - they have had a very important ops support task to do here in the UK.

I've served around Air Traffickers in the Falklands, Afghanistan, Iraq and the Balkans. Often it is their specialisation that lets them down as it is normally not easily transferrable to control in other country's airspace.

I've often thought we send too many non-op types to staff college who end up being starred ranks and their knowledge of our core business (airpower projection) is woefully thin - again, this is not a dig at any particular individual on this thread!

LJ

I agree, we send lots of Pers Spt, Air BMs, Suppliers, Rock Apes, RAFP, Flt Ops and others to Advanced Staff College and there's only usually 1 gusting 2 starred posts for them to fill - what a waste indeed.

iRaven

ACSC attendance is for reserved for those demonstrating the potential for promotion to Gp Capt, the number of Air Rank appointments per Branch is therefore irrelevant.

Service on ops can only be of benefit to the professional development of any serviceperson but it doesn't necessarily follow that lack of op experience is detrimental.

Mahogany

You are of course technically correct, but a lot of good operators don't get ACSC as they don't have the "reach" to 1-2 star (I know as I used to work in Manning). Which is a bit pants as a lot of branches that attend don't have this "reach" to start with!!

iRaven

The solution could be to open the number of Air Ranks available to non-"Operators"......

We could start by identifying what competencies we require for each rank/role. Then we could select, train and post individuals in order enable them to obtain the correct mix of skills, knowledge and experience to best prepare them for every stage of the career. Or we could just continue to stovepipe people by branch and job title and ignore the idea of best person for the job.

As the RAF downsizes....are there being made reductions in the numbers of Star Ranks commensurate to the reduction in over all manning? Or....would such reductions stymie promoting the necessary qualified people to those Ranks in order to have them available for some large War mobilization need?

I thought this was a good piece from Sky News, with AVM Elaine West, that's just been released ...

Sky News AVM E. West

Well played Ma'am :D

Whoop de do.

If we are going to mirror society, how long until we can expect the disabled and ex-offenders with 'unspent' convictions to start applying to join?

Newsflash for MOD Main Office, there is no such thing as equality. It is a manufactured concept in vogue since the 18th century revolutions.

If it made economic sense to a company to have 50% of its board composed of women, don't you think the profit-hungry venture capitalists from NY to London would have done it as a matter of course already??!!:ugh:

Similarly, if all women were capable of achieving Air Rank after 30+ years of hard work, and wanted to make the sacrifices necessary, then 50% of Air Ranks..........would be women??

The fact is, that most women drop out of the mil to have the children they so obviously want (my wife and 3 kids at home being a case in point). If she wanted to be a career animal - she would have been one.

So lets cut the social engineering newspeak and concentrate on what's important: Another senior officer, in an RAF with about 7 front line sqns (hyperbole, I know), has been promoted by fair means or foul, who knows. It matters not what gender they are.

That's not really a fair comparison, virtually no large civilian company will want to employ someone with convictions, and certainly not unspent ones. Spent, then yes they'll have to "consider" them by law, but that's no guarantee the person will be viewed very favourably especially when they're up against someone equally qualified with a lack of same "spent convictions".

Training Risky,

"It matters not what gender they are."

Well, judging from your hysterical rant, it appears to matter to you!

You are aware that it is possible to be a success in business or whatever chosen career path, AND a mother?

What matters is selection based on merit, not quota filling. All the PR-spin 'first at whatever' stories are meaningless drivel in a world where sexism/racism is illegal and young girls can become Queen and PM.

And yes it is possible to be a success in business or whatever chosen career path, AND a mother, but the few examples you can hold up as role models are notable as exceptions (Horlick/Roddick/Thatcher).

To clarify, if the business/political/military worlds were meant to be statistically representative of society - then all the naturally talented and able women (who want to sacrifice their family time) would be in 50% of top positions by now. Human nature and biology say that is not meant to be so - so they are not.

Evidently not in the Training Risky household!

and another, good on the girls..


https://www.gov.uk/government/organi...try-of-defence

With apologies to Harry Callahan...

So no snide remarks about no campaign medals for this lady!

Just dragged out the photo of my graduation parade at Feltwell in 1964. The portly old AVM who took our parade looks old enough in the pic to be this lady's father.

At least some things are looking up in the RAF :ok: