Gijoe

Now you've done it, you've sewn a seed for AFPS24...:eek:

LJ :ok:

Congratulations Ma'am, a promotion well deserved.

There is (in spite of previous posts) no corrosive attitude towards desert gongs versus no gongs - aside from the usual banter at dining in nights.

Promotion to Air Rank is to be congratulated on merit. Entirely seperately, Op Gongs are for those who deserve them (and some Klingons who are posted to theatre to ensure that we all wear hats and exchange a bottle of water for a cold one in the fridge). Who gives a toss either way? Well done

What's with all this gong fetish, go join McDonalds you can get 4 stars there.



..

...and that is exacly my point. Today it matters...tomorrow it won't.

A talented and focussed lady, without doubt.

Well done. Tomorrow it won't be newsworthy.

G:ok:

'There is an increasingly corrosive attitude around these days, which can be described as "You ain't done sand = you ain't done $hit"; such a blinkered attitude needs to be restrained. I first came across the very same attitude some 31 years ago, when I encountered some poisonous little thruster of a Sqn Ldr who was desperate for a posting to the South Atlantic - for no other reason than "If you haven't been to the Falklands, you're no-one in London".'

...but Mr BEagle let us be serious.

Life in defence has changed an awful lot in the last 10 years and you need to be in touch with it.

Bottom Line - Ranks above SO1 have no idea about what is needed at the delivery level. Bust. Sand is not everything but it is better than NI alone.

Understanding what has happened on ops in the last 10 years is important ...BECAUSE WE NEED TO BE READY FOR THE NEXT BIG SHOUT.

(SHOUT mode off)

G:ok:

'Gijoe

Now you've done it, you've sewn a seed for AFPS24...

LJ'

For £500 a day + expenses I will write the policy!

Gotta be cheaper than G4S or Serco???

G:ok:

Many of the chaps over on ARRSE are less than impressed by Mrs West's promotion.

And they probably don't feel too happy about the former AC/LAC/SAC now running the show in the South Atlantic.

:D

G

You couldn't do much worse - the NEM and AFPS15 seems to be working towards a Grade 'A*' screw up!

By the way, I would venture that things have changed much in ~20 years since I did my first campaign; I didn't learn much more on the subsequent visits back and forth! However, prior to that, things have changed a lot (IMHO).

LJ

Arrse is largely full of whining clique civies these days so not a lot to worry about.

When the "first" whatever is no longer apposite? Same applies to "only".

Off Topic
 

My apologies to AVM West and PPruners for going off topic but..............

Secret1 you have made 18 posts in a little over 3 years; not much of a contribution really.

Your last 2 posts, on this thread, have been pointless invective; no logical thought and no sensible argument.

Why bother?

Rgds SOS

Don't know the Lady but well done Ma'am, that is a career to be proud of:D:D:D

Counters the accusations over the past days on other threads that the RAF is less than a meritocratic organisation.

It seems that "first" and "only" doesn't quite cut it though in this case - count the rings on her No 1s...

http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/images/o...ortrait-TF.jpg

This is Katherine Trefusis-Forbes (as previously mentioned) from the Women's Aux Air Force. She was a 2-star.

I neglected to add my own congratulations to AVM West. She must be exceptionally competent, both within her branch and without, to achieve her current prominence from such humble beginnings.

...then there is Mary Welsh...

http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/arts/yourpai...1284_large.jpg

So, whilst I am delighted for this officer of high regard, I am not so delighted with having the "first female to" rammed down my throat by the incredibly ignorant media lot (FFS the RAF is only 95 years old - it can't be that difficult!).

LJ

Then there was Jean Conan Doyle (the daughter of Sir Arthur) who was also a 2 star...

http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/arts/yourpai...0240_large.jpg

So should the headline read "New Head of DIO goes to well respected officer" - now that would be gender fair, don't you think?

I feel your pain Leon.:\

LJ

Your diatribe that she isn't the first should perhaps be pointed out to CDS, as he just may have been the chap that wanted all of this media attention for Ma'am West, and her promotion success.

As a FTRS officer your DII account can surely reach him.

LJ - Isn't the point that AVM West is a member of the regular RAF, not a separate auxiliary force or service? Otherwise, by your reckoning, each of the 17 Directors of WRNS qualified as a Royal Navy 2* despite having belonged to a separate service prior to amalgamation.


Mind you, the Royal Navy has had its own woman 3* for some years: :)

Despite sounding rather clumsy, perhaps "first woman 2* in the regular RAF" would suit you better?

FOD Plod

Semantics, old bean, semantics. Would you care to define 'Regular' - there are many full-time WAAFs and many highly decorated (I've met some in a rather select Club in Knightsbridge).

The Women's RAF disbanded in 1920 and the WAAFs were its replacement along with the Nursing Service. The WRAF did not form again until after the war and then finally everything was blobbed into the RAF.

Now if we were to cherry pick like you suggest, then the RAF should not be celebrating the 100 year anniversaries of our Sqns (which were RNAS and RFC originally) that we have so blatantly trumpeted over the past 3 years or so (including RAF jets with anniversary painted tails). You can't have it both ways old chum :ok:

So in my reckoning the headline should read either:

"Talented officer is appointed Head of DIO" - removing all traces of equality and diversity spin.

Or "Female officer Elaine West appointed 4th ever 2-star in RAF"

Everything else is spin and lies...

IMHO

LJ

Leon,

You reckon that long eh?!

PS. If we're into trumpetting firsts then why didn't we have "First Navigator to 4-star rank" (Simon Bryant in 2010) and "2nd ever Navigator 4-star heading up new Joint Force Command" (Stuart Peach). So this 'spin' is sexist in my opinion when we are supposed to be equal. The fact that she is female should have no bearing on it.

Now the fact that she appears to be highly rated, professional and deserved of 2-star rank (according to most on here), then that is what the headline should reflect; not the incorrect fact that she is the first female 2-star in HM's Air Force.

Now, if she were to reach 3-star, now I agree, that would be a first! :ok:

LJ

Al

We can but hope. It depends if Nu-Labour get in next time around and spend like billy-ho!

LJ

Oh come on Leon get over this. Look like it or not, disagree with it you may but the fact remains that females are under-represented in the UK workplace, especially so in the higher echelon posts. So with respect to the news release (spin as you see it) the fact that she is female has every bearing on it. Every day I have an uphill battle trying to convince the lassies in the science classroom that they should peruse STEM careers every bit as the boys as they are just as capable. If stories like this help then where the hell is the harm - we need more of these not less. Just like the female GE story a few weeks back.

The fact that we don't publish with the same vigour "First Navigator to 4-star rank" is that being a Nav is a lifestyle choice not something your are born to!:ugh: So please, just celebrate the good news will you and hope that it may inspire some other ladies/girls that maybe they should strive for such success. She is far better than the X factor role models chasing their celebrity god.

Oh I love PPRuNe. No matter how good the news, someone will always find a reason to complain. Hang on, just like my former employee.

Anyway, congratulations Ma'am. Keep doing good work. (Wish we had a salute emoticon)

Found this, on seconds thoughts more like Benny Hill!

http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/he...y-emoticon.gif

Tom

I'm 90% with you, but I disagree that spinning stories like this does gender equality any good at all. I know of many females colleagues that have turned down being paraded in news stories such as this (such as the first woman to get 1000hrs Fast Jet). They know how damaging this can be amongst their peer group if they are to be accepted for who they are - a felow human being with equal rights and a shared skill set.

Over my 25 years I have seen positive recruitment of females significantly damage their relationships with their colleagues. For example, the first female aircrew got many more 'flex' hours than their male peers - sometimes to 200-300%. Now that is not equality. Neither is the fact that an 18 year old female has to achieve the same RAF Fitness Test standard as a 54 year old male. Again, that is not equality. Now, when something is newsworthy (ie. a Nav getting 4-star) and it doesn't make the headlines, but a 4th female to get Air Force 2-star gets a mention, that again is not equality.

If we truly want to rid the last bastions of misogynistic behaviour from males in the workplace then we need to desist in the spin-doctoring of females in the work place for being female. Treat them as equals and for the merit of their skills not their gender.

I say again, the headline should have read "Talented RAF Officer is appointed Head of DIO" - gender should not be brought into it. All this should have stopped when we had a female Prime Minister some 70 years after Sufferage; enough is enough.

Finally, I am delighted for AVM Elaine; from what I have read it would seem richly deserved. I am also delighted to see that there is Light Blue at the helm of DIO. As I said before, she has my congratulations as a fellow RAF Officer.

LJ

PS. Is Navigator a "life choice"? I thought all of us were selected for natural abilities (that we were born with) and then streamed at OASC to the aircrew branch that would fit them best? :ok:

I am afraid I am with LJ on this one... we are living in an enlightened age and the RAF is better than this. First gay squadron commander? First black two star? First asian..... you get my drift. If we are a meritocracy then this is not remarkable... nor should it be. Congrats to the AVM West and great news that the DIO has a talented leader... and great that the RAF can contend for such top slots.

On the medals front... well... the phrase "everyone has to do one in rank" seems to have been trotted out by my poster quite a lot... and latterly, those postings have been far more general in nature than aircrew specific. In fact, I would have thought an infra specialist would have been vital in Afghanistan.... particularly considering our work in NTM-A... and also with the PRTs?.... just sayin'

Leon again I agree but let's see if we can close that 10% then. I wasn't suggesting for one second that the AVM had been selected under any positive equality policy; without question she earned that position. I know that is your position as well but I think it worth stating to remove any ambiguity.

Ok with respect to female staff shunning being the "poster girl" for the equality bandwaggon; again, I fully agree with both your observations and opinion. I also shared those experiences where I saw some very capable female officers coming under pressure to be the face of RAF equality. But that's not the point I was making. There really is a genuine need to bring to the attention of young girls in this country that these careers are open to them and that they are equally capable. Indeed, they themselves want to compete on an equal playing field - they will argue that most vociferously. So this is not about positive discrimination - at least that is not how I see it. I honestly see the story for what it is: a good story, a story with a positive message that hard work and effort pays off, and yes a story that may inspire some of the brightest talent that this country has in girls. Now this is the point where I declare my stake in this argument. Yes as a teacher of a STEM subject I'm always alert to these stories, but for my own daughters I am passionate about getting that message through to them. So yes - less of the artificial positive discrimination - right person for the job - and if that happens to be a lady then sing it from the rooftops because we desperately need the role models.

I hesitate to comment on this - it's a bit of a shabby discussion. Look when the great sandpit tour kicked off not every rank had a post requirement - particularly the more senior ranks. So quite understandable that some of our senior officers don't hold these - nothing whatsoever to do with them. If you wear a medal other than for valour then thank your poster for that. I'll probably upset a few folk with that but hey ho medals are for heros not for eating pizza. In my opinion, feel free to disagree of course.

For those of us who joined before the various sandpit excursions and the small skirmishes in the Balkans, operational deployments were few and far between - Northern Ireland and that was it. Generally speaking, the most impressive ironmongery was worn by chefs, MT drivers, SAR-Boys and some of the SH daredevils (ever wondered why SH boxes above its weight at the highest echelons?). Meanwhile, the FJ chaps would seek solace in the occasional DFC/AFC awarded for surviving a mid-air with a bird. :)

Do we really judge capability by counting the number of 'attendance' medals? How............. American. :{

DFC only for enemy birds, of course. Friendly birds would get you the AFC ;)

Well, the absolute best of luck to her.

She may well have more cojones than most of the men. The women that I flew with (generally) had to be twice as good as the men to be considered an equal.

She can't do any worse than the blokes have . . .

Tom - I think we shaved off another 5 or so % there. I completely agree with role models and I think that AVM West should be held up as role for both females AND males - she had a humble start as an Other Rank, started in one of the less operational branches (Admin/Pers) and got a commission and now she is a 2-star. I believe that if we want to push the message to young females from now on then it should be the job of people like yourself (a teacher) and not the press headlines. Otherwise, I fear that we play into the hands of misoganysts who exclaim that "she probably got there because of her gender/looks/behaviour and/or positive discrimination".

I believe it is the right time that poster girls and "female/women appointed as" should cease.

Dengue-Dude - I agree, once in the perdominently all-male 'sink or swim' world of a front-line sqn, the females had to prove their worth much harder to a bunch of sceptical males. However, it didn't help when some were given such an easy ride compared to their male counterparts in the early days of flying training - the RAF/MOD were so desperate for headlines in those days that we even had a female student aircrew officer who was afraid of the dark (and once they discovered this they still tried to push her through!). This was at a time when more than 5 hours of extra training (so called "flex") would get a male student chopped and some females were getting 20-50 hours extra "flex" to grab the headline.

LJ

Leon, I would only add that to push the message I need examples, real world examples, ones that shine brighter than X Factor graduates.

You are right of course that the real praiseworthy element here is her journey to the top having started as an SACW - as you say pertinent to both males/females. That is talent and hard work at play. We closed a good bit of the gap Leon - I'll settle for that. Cheers fella.ok:

Yep, I was teaching on the Herc OCU around the time the ladies appeared. One was outstanding and passed on huge merit, the other one passed but was average (and no shame on that before it's misinterpreted). But it's tough for them too, being in a male environment and subject to the 'policy decisions' and the subsequent resentment from your peers cannot be easy.

I suspect MoD know that the 'pass at any cost' was in fact an 'own goal'. There are a lot of ladies out there with oodles of talent and honest ability, they don't need to 'change the rules' just to accomodate the also rans - it's dengegrating and disrespectful to those who make it on merit alone, rather than gender.

Tom/Dengue

Agreed all around - :ok:

LJ

PS. I'm glad that we haven't descended into the muck spreading on Arrse and E-Goat, though! :eek:

I think this photo emerged in about 2008/9 ish:

http://www.aviationnews.eu/blog/wp-c...ew-600x450.jpg

Back in NI in the mid-90s there was an all female crew on Pumas, but the three of them refused point blank to do any of the "first female to..." for the very reasons alluded to above.

But then there's Al Murray...

meh, sounds like me. Used to love the 'If you're below average yer chopped' bit.
So that means that 'average' is now halfway up the 'above average' bunch. :confused: