Air-to-Air dogfighter champ?
 

Question to all of the F-15, F-16, and F-18 fighter pilots out there...which jet holds the advantage in dogfighting (assuming the pilots are relatively equal in experience)? Does one do better in a slower knife fight and the other in a higher speed fight? My theory is the Viper has the advantage in medium to high speeds and the Hornet has the advantage in slow speed because of its good high-alpha capabilities. I am thinking the Eagle does best at high altitudes, since it cannot compete in turning performance with the other two jets. Although the F-15 has a great thrust-to-weight ratio, which I am assuming pilots will use to their advantage. I left the F-22 out of this question since it probably has all three of the other jets clearly beat.

But why not the Harrier?



Running, err walking swiftly for me coat and hat

You do mean the Sea Harrier, surely?

Well, forget the rest, the Eagle has over a hundred aerial victories with precisely ZERO losses. No other plane can beat that!

GF

But in practice it has lost!

Practice makes perfect and its record is perfect.

GF

If that was the case, you'd think the oxygen system would work.

And that there'd be more than a few of them.

It's all fun and games having the shiny Cadillac until the Wild Bunch rides in on their grubby but numerous Harleys and is drinking in your O'Club

(ok, All Ranks Club now. What could possibly go wrong there...)

I would like to state categorically that I have lost to just about everyone in Sea Harrier, Harrier and F-18.

Hope that helps.;)

The F-15 has most real kills. End of story...

The rest is B/S

In that case the Sopwith Camel trumps it easily.
Credited with an unprecedented 1,300 to 3,000 aircraft kills (sources vary) during The Great War (1914-1918).

the others are all B/S:)

Does that include other fighters and air forces such as the IAF or the IDF?

The F15 has been hit on at least 2 occasions by a sidewinder, one causing the loss of the aircraft. Admittedly these were both blue on blue incidents!

Not sure the question makes sense as asked.

All 3 have difference performance envelopes with areas where they are better or worse than the other. The aim in combat being to drag your opponent into fighting in a corner of the envelope where you have advantage.

Assuming equal pilots with a limited time window the result should be a draw.

Most times it's a stand-off; the pilot with best low level performance trying to persuade the higher to come down; those with better sustained turn rate trying to get into a turning fight, the other playing the vertical.

The other factors in the real world are the number of weapons you have and fuel state/distance from base. Get fired out before the other guy and you're on a hiding from nothing and egressing from a fight on a low fuel state without getting shot is one of the hardest things to do.

Bye and bye, I highly recommend " " by Robert Shaw

Combat
 

Keeping it simple, and I mean dogfighting equals visual combat. Having flown against all 3 types in an F-14B I would say The F-18. My tactics against the F-15 was to drag him low, I had better turn performance with the wings forward and the more powerful engines helped keep the energy up. F-16, drag him slow and get him to hit his alpha limiter - the F-14 had not such thing. The F-18 however always seemed to have the edge no matter where you fought and it tended to be who made the first mistake lost. It was however great fun.:)

Really?
 

How about any German fighter pilot who survived WW2 without being killed or captured with more than fifty kills?

Galland a good place to start.

The TWU at Brawdy used to have a quote from him on the front of their student handbook...

Your discussion above reminds me of Red Flag 94 where various fighter pilot types would let the package get whacked rather than risk getting shot down themselves...

Combat v Red Flag
 

Bigpants, was that aimed at my post. I was just talking about 1v1. The tactics for Red Flag etc is totally different and not normally visual combat.

This channel had the Mustang at number one slot albeit 'of all time'.

Military Channel: Wars, Weapons, Games, Top Ten Lists

In a 1v1 visual fight, the 16 and 15 should out-turn the 18. The 16 is pretty much half an F-15 and they are very closely matched. One area where the f-15 wins is in the slow fight where the F-16 flight control system starts to back off pitch input whereas the F-15 system gives you full stabilator authority.

At the back end of the F-15 RTU course our students used to go up against the F-16 Guard units and would generally either win or escape.

F16
 

Courtney, the problem was seeing the little b@st@rds:sad: Size does matter!

True, Mate. And they have no problem spotting the titanium tennis court.

What about the ultimate Tomcat ? the F14D


With those big GE engines and that amazing wing from what I understand nothing could touch it, sad that it's gone


:sad:

F6F Hellcat
 

As Courtney said the F15 and F16 are the better dogfighters than F18 on paper due to better thrust to weight and turning performance (2 circle).

Having fought the F16, F15 many times in the Super Hornet, as well as the Typhoon and F22, F18 has come off better against the 16,15 and Typhoon in my experience (stand fast completely clean F16!) on most occasions, due to bringing the fight to where it suits the Hornet. Pulling 9 g is not everything.

F22 just was not cricket however and appeared to defeat the laws of physics and all that is natural!

Interesting numbers in this F-18 HUD… fly it like you stole it comes to mind:

http://www.alert5.com/newsphotos/f18fgunf2202.jpg

…and just to make the debrief even more interesting:

http://www.alert5.com/newsphotos/f18fgunf22.jpg

Orca,

Believe that included me in another Harrier once - 'just a few degrees more.....ah, faded!'

;)

I would also like to state categorically that Red Air wouldn't ordinarily coach Blue Air into refining the notch!

I have a vague recollection we both ended up having to eke out the petrol a little after that one!;)

Happy days.

Here's a scenario.

Two fighters, at FL100, flying straight and level towards each other and when passing abeam, it's game on.

With 100 rounds each. Non gun cabs can have a podded gun fitted.

No other weapons allowed. Chaff and flares are permitted.

Pure, visual, turning gunfight.

Lets start with F-15 v F-16. Who wins?

Pardon me for asking. In a visual fight with guns only, what's the point of chaff and flare?

As your girlfriend will probably confirm one day, often it's the 'gunner', not the 'gun' which is the deciding factor.....:hmm:

Also old age and treachery will frequently triumph over youth and skill....;)

Comfort blanket mostly! :))

Chaff might fox radar laid gunnery but I expect most will be using the Mk2 eyeball and the fight jocks godlike skills ;)

OK, no pyros. 100 rounds and and a steely glare.

Mk 2 Eyeball? - I've been robbed. Mum, Dad wtf were you doing delivering me with MK1?

I thought the Mk2 eyeball was tongue-in-cheek for NVGs! Night dogfighting, now that would be a real danger sport!

I did have the early external Myopia upgrade rolled out on mine so perhaps they aren't Mk1's anymore.

F6F's loss ratio was inevitably assisted by the fact that by late 1943 most of the decent Japanese stickmen were dead or (rarely) captured, and the aircraft were obsolete or obsolescent. The few decent aircraft the Japanese were able to field were hamstrung by tactics, inexperience and a lack of Avgas.

I don't think it was a better fighter aircraft than the P51D for instance (or others).

I guess JWCOOK and his Camel stats forgot to read the question...:=

Green Flash, to repeat a classic call I heard during ACT ( amongst many others ) in the days prior to Fox 4.

Ac1: "Fox 1"

Ac2: "Chaff and flare, chaff and flare, continue".

Ac1: "Fox 2"

Ac2: "Chaff and flare, chaff and flare, continue".

Ac1: "Fox 3, chaff and flare that you bast*rd".

For it's time the Fokker Dr.I Dreidecker must be on the Dog Fight Champ List ?

http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1429/5...ace31d34_n.jpg

Might even be a few PPRuNers that have mixed it with the little Fokker :E

I did read it...

If kills is the only criteria then the Sopwith wins, you were the one who changed the originals posters criteria by stating everything else is BS.

I was asserting by my post re the Sopwith that it was obviously incorrect.

As others have pointed out there's more to it than just kills, who the opposition is and any disproportionate situational awareness would play a bigger part in squewing the win loss ratio's.

It would be interesting to hear what the result is when everything is equal.

Cheers

A few years ago, I was flying south somewhere near Wellingborough with a student doing his PPL Skill Test navigation diversion. Glancing out of the window, I was somewhat surprised to see a DR 1 flying north.

Checking first that we weren't trapped in some sort of Final Countdown flashback, we both enjoyed the sight of the little red triplane blatting merrily along - it looked superb!

It was probably one of the handful of Fokker DR 1 replicas still flying in the UK.