" an obsolete single engine trainer"

USN- The T-45 is to be in service until 2035 or later.

and coming from a country that still is dependent on the T-38 Talon (first flight over 50 years ago) to train its Air ForceI think that's a bit much TBH

Harry....you know exactly what I was saying.

Your Reds fly old kit, a trainer, and do not fly frontline FJ aircraft.

They are darned good, put on a good show but their aircraft just are not that impressive anymore.

The aircraft they fly gets the job done, usually any way....but they are not Golly Gee Whiz rides they have.

Put them in that new thingy you have over there....Typhoon is it....now that would change the whole ballgame!

Yes, I don't think anyone could argue against the extra wow factor the Blue Angels have because of their aircraft. And their crazily tight formation, of course.

SASless a question ...

I know displays are performed at Low Level but why no full Ox Mask kit ? ... OK boom mics are more comfortable but if you fly FJ's the standard rig should be worn ?

Cheers

Coff

SASless,

I remember seeing the Red Arrows in Cyprus (1972) doing their work up (final) display and I thought "Not bad." Then a Lightning came onto the scene, smashed the place up; at the end of his display - with 8/8s Blue - the guy flew his jet halfway along the display line and then went vertical - simply disappeared - and I thought "Wow."

Good point, well made.

S4G

- ah, but then you would not see their faces............................

Coff, I can only imagine it's to let the camera see the pilot's face. Or so that the adoring crowds can see the pilot's steely smile during taxy.

Obviously no need for O2 at low level, but stupid not to have the O2 mask in the event of fire, fumes, ejection (part of helmet stability). Presumably they would have to put the masks on for transits - who knows what altitude you'd need for various reasons. Also the mask helps cut out cockpit noise when using RT and offers some (not much) protection against injury from birdstrike.

Seems pretty silly to me.

Thanks Courtney ... agreed ... wear the right kit for the job :ok:

I first saw `Bin the Reds` as a serious cost saving suggestion in `85 when I started my first Eng Authority job...I guess its been going ever since in the annual staff blood letting exercise..

However - this time I have the answer! Try this lot on contract!

:ok:

gliderFX - Home - Aerobatic displays in the world's most exciting aerobatic gliders

I cannot answer the question re Mask/No Mask but I would assume they go without during displays as O2 is not required, reduces the head weight during their High G maneuvers, allows for easier head movement with greater range of motion. Listening to the intercom conversation in the two seat aircraft shows the boom mikes work just fine with the noise level.

The Navy has a tradition of using both mask and boom mike setups in their Operational flying perhaps that is a carry over from the old days.

Court....your opinion is noted however I would have to assume the USN Aviation Safety folks studied the issue and decided it was the better way to go for the Team. As they are Professionals in this kind of business I would think you would grant them some respect.....or is that reserved for the Reds only?

I am sure when they transit between shows and get to normal cruise heights they wear the standard gear.

Looking at Thunderbirds stuff....it appears they wear the Mask.

The no-mask thing is to allow full-face camera shots. Masks don't impinge on communications in any way, in fact they reduce the ambient noise into the mike. I think the Blue Angels 'no mask' thing is one of these classic bits of commander's risk analysis:

Option 1 - Keep the boom mic. During my 2- or 3-year period of responsibility, there is a small (perhaps less than 1%) chance that a serious incident will result in me being charged with negligence, for perpetuating an obviously risky PR benefit at the expense of safety.

Option 2 - Mandate the mask. Approximately a 100% chance of attracting disapproval from old + bold admirals (who aren't themselves in the airworthiness chain, but definitely have a say in my career). I don't really want to be known as a stickler for health and safety, do I?

Less than 1% chance of being caught out? 100% chance of attracting criticism from above? No-brainer. Risk tolerated!

Well, I for one very much enjoyed seeing my tax dollars at work today practicing over Scampton. Really brightened up a long journey home. And despite my shaky phone camerawork, my four-year-old lad thought it was brilliant too. I hope some of the air+ground team frequent this forum - thanks, guys/gals.

:ok: :ok:

The source for your definite statement of that being the reason is?

You have some official reference that confirms that or are you just offering a personal opinion based on mere supposition?

I don't have an official source. It is a supposition, albeit one based on years of fast-jet flying.

If you can offer any official evidence that there is any reason other than PR for the Blue Angels to dispense with the oxygen masks worn as standard by fast-jet crews the world over, whether on display or on normal duties, then I will gladly retract my previous post. Until such time, I stand entirely by my comments, which I reckon to be based on firmer ground than any of these personal opinions based on mere supposition:

Oxygen masks weigh practically nothing and don't stick out as far as a boom mike.
If the mask hose is the right length then the helmet touching the collar of the lifejacket is the most limiting factor on range of movement.
Becomes a questionable assumption as soon as smoke or fumes are encountered.

I don't need to produce a reference to suggest that the flying kit designed for use in the F/A-18, an aircraft easily capable of 7g and a renowned close-in dogfighter, might be designed specifically with freedom of head movement in mind.

So an impasse....you pose an opinion but not based upon any knowledge of the Blue's basis for doing what they do. Sounds fine to me.

I certainly don't know but clearly stated that my comment was just a guess.

Small but definite difference don't you think.

TBH an AIR DISPLAY is not about carting some super jet around the scenery at max speed and noise - it is about precision flying

I always felt that the Lightning was dreadful display aircraft - it made a lot of noise but it disappeared from sight for well over half the time - compared to the Hunter it was grim to watch. The Hawk is a pretty good aeroplane for display flying - you can always roll out the heavy iron for a few passes (or very slow ones if you are Russian) to show what you've got but for a display give me something that can turn inside a 4km circle

Like the F-16 perhaps....or the F-22 or the F-35, Harrier, Typhoon, A-10, perhaps the Tornado?

Air Shows are not just some airplanes flying close together....one small for instance.... the Spitfire, Lancaster, Hurricane, B-29, B-17, B-24, Corsair, Mustang.

When the Huey and Chinook show up...it is a complete Show!

I had the pleasure of watching the Blue Angels do their thing recently at their winter training ground. They were very impressive and always made the effort to wave whilst taxiing past. They also came to visit my unit, in preparation for a display, a couple of months ago and the crew came wearing boom mikes for the transit.

There can be no reason other than aesthetics for not wearing a mask. This is just a case of risk analysis (or not) resulting in a course of action. There is no reason why a mask could not be worn for this stuff and not wearing one brings risk both for ejection (low probability) and smoke and fumes (low probability). Imho suggesting that it's for range of motion or weight is (imho) misguided. We do defensive BFM with masks and JHMCS very often which requires greater range of motion; max available G; and greater weight on the old head. It's no big deal.

Recentish film on the Blue Angels showed how totally focused on "show" they are. Looks are everything, they don't wear g-suits to spoil the cut of their uniforms.
Good luck to them, couldn't face that environment myself, let alone cut the mustard.

OAP