" an obsolete single engine trainer"

USN- The T-45 is to be in service until 2035 or later.

and coming from a country that still is dependent on the T-38 Talon (first flight over 50 years ago) to train its Air ForceI think that's a bit much TBH

Harry....you know exactly what I was saying.

Your Reds fly old kit, a trainer, and do not fly frontline FJ aircraft.

They are darned good, put on a good show but their aircraft just are not that impressive anymore.

The aircraft they fly gets the job done, usually any way....but they are not Golly Gee Whiz rides they have.

Put them in that new thingy you have over there....Typhoon is it....now that would change the whole ballgame!

Yes, I don't think anyone could argue against the extra wow factor the Blue Angels have because of their aircraft. And their crazily tight formation, of course.

SASless a question ...

I know displays are performed at Low Level but why no full Ox Mask kit ? ... OK boom mics are more comfortable but if you fly FJ's the standard rig should be worn ?

Cheers

Coff

SASless,

I remember seeing the Red Arrows in Cyprus (1972) doing their work up (final) display and I thought "Not bad." Then a Lightning came onto the scene, smashed the place up; at the end of his display - with 8/8s Blue - the guy flew his jet halfway along the display line and then went vertical - simply disappeared - and I thought "Wow."

Good point, well made.

S4G

- ah, but then you would not see their faces............................

Coff, I can only imagine it's to let the camera see the pilot's face. Or so that the adoring crowds can see the pilot's steely smile during taxy.

Obviously no need for O2 at low level, but stupid not to have the O2 mask in the event of fire, fumes, ejection (part of helmet stability). Presumably they would have to put the masks on for transits - who knows what altitude you'd need for various reasons. Also the mask helps cut out cockpit noise when using RT and offers some (not much) protection against injury from birdstrike.

Seems pretty silly to me.

Thanks Courtney ... agreed ... wear the right kit for the job :ok:

I first saw `Bin the Reds` as a serious cost saving suggestion in `85 when I started my first Eng Authority job...I guess its been going ever since in the annual staff blood letting exercise..

However - this time I have the answer! Try this lot on contract!

:ok:

gliderFX - Home - Aerobatic displays in the world's most exciting aerobatic gliders

I cannot answer the question re Mask/No Mask but I would assume they go without during displays as O2 is not required, reduces the head weight during their High G maneuvers, allows for easier head movement with greater range of motion. Listening to the intercom conversation in the two seat aircraft shows the boom mikes work just fine with the noise level.

The Navy has a tradition of using both mask and boom mike setups in their Operational flying perhaps that is a carry over from the old days.

Court....your opinion is noted however I would have to assume the USN Aviation Safety folks studied the issue and decided it was the better way to go for the Team. As they are Professionals in this kind of business I would think you would grant them some respect.....or is that reserved for the Reds only?

I am sure when they transit between shows and get to normal cruise heights they wear the standard gear.

Looking at Thunderbirds stuff....it appears they wear the Mask.

The no-mask thing is to allow full-face camera shots. Masks don't impinge on communications in any way, in fact they reduce the ambient noise into the mike. I think the Blue Angels 'no mask' thing is one of these classic bits of commander's risk analysis:

Option 1 - Keep the boom mic. During my 2- or 3-year period of responsibility, there is a small (perhaps less than 1%) chance that a serious incident will result in me being charged with negligence, for perpetuating an obviously risky PR benefit at the expense of safety.

Option 2 - Mandate the mask. Approximately a 100% chance of attracting disapproval from old + bold admirals (who aren't themselves in the airworthiness chain, but definitely have a say in my career). I don't really want to be known as a stickler for health and safety, do I?

Less than 1% chance of being caught out? 100% chance of attracting criticism from above? No-brainer. Risk tolerated!

Well, I for one very much enjoyed seeing my tax dollars at work today practicing over Scampton. Really brightened up a long journey home. And despite my shaky phone camerawork, my four-year-old lad thought it was brilliant too. I hope some of the air+ground team frequent this forum - thanks, guys/gals.

:ok: :ok:

The source for your definite statement of that being the reason is?

You have some official reference that confirms that or are you just offering a personal opinion based on mere supposition?

I don't have an official source. It is a supposition, albeit one based on years of fast-jet flying.

If you can offer any official evidence that there is any reason other than PR for the Blue Angels to dispense with the oxygen masks worn as standard by fast-jet crews the world over, whether on display or on normal duties, then I will gladly retract my previous post. Until such time, I stand entirely by my comments, which I reckon to be based on firmer ground than any of these personal opinions based on mere supposition:

Oxygen masks weigh practically nothing and don't stick out as far as a boom mike.
If the mask hose is the right length then the helmet touching the collar of the lifejacket is the most limiting factor on range of movement.
Becomes a questionable assumption as soon as smoke or fumes are encountered.

I don't need to produce a reference to suggest that the flying kit designed for use in the F/A-18, an aircraft easily capable of 7g and a renowned close-in dogfighter, might be designed specifically with freedom of head movement in mind.

So an impasse....you pose an opinion but not based upon any knowledge of the Blue's basis for doing what they do. Sounds fine to me.

I certainly don't know but clearly stated that my comment was just a guess.

Small but definite difference don't you think.

TBH an AIR DISPLAY is not about carting some super jet around the scenery at max speed and noise - it is about precision flying

I always felt that the Lightning was dreadful display aircraft - it made a lot of noise but it disappeared from sight for well over half the time - compared to the Hunter it was grim to watch. The Hawk is a pretty good aeroplane for display flying - you can always roll out the heavy iron for a few passes (or very slow ones if you are Russian) to show what you've got but for a display give me something that can turn inside a 4km circle

Like the F-16 perhaps....or the F-22 or the F-35, Harrier, Typhoon, A-10, perhaps the Tornado?

Air Shows are not just some airplanes flying close together....one small for instance.... the Spitfire, Lancaster, Hurricane, B-29, B-17, B-24, Corsair, Mustang.

When the Huey and Chinook show up...it is a complete Show!

I had the pleasure of watching the Blue Angels do their thing recently at their winter training ground. They were very impressive and always made the effort to wave whilst taxiing past. They also came to visit my unit, in preparation for a display, a couple of months ago and the crew came wearing boom mikes for the transit.

There can be no reason other than aesthetics for not wearing a mask. This is just a case of risk analysis (or not) resulting in a course of action. There is no reason why a mask could not be worn for this stuff and not wearing one brings risk both for ejection (low probability) and smoke and fumes (low probability). Imho suggesting that it's for range of motion or weight is (imho) misguided. We do defensive BFM with masks and JHMCS very often which requires greater range of motion; max available G; and greater weight on the old head. It's no big deal.

Recentish film on the Blue Angels showed how totally focused on "show" they are. Looks are everything, they don't wear g-suits to spoil the cut of their uniforms.
Good luck to them, couldn't face that environment myself, let alone cut the mustard.

OAP

Not wearing G suits or masks is frankly irresponsible. There have been several fatal accidents in jet display teams due to G forces within memory. With the G the BAs pull the risk is not worth taking for the sake of bull****.

Having instructed on jets, both with and without 'g' suits (Macchi with, Jet Provost without) I reckon that the major difference is not so much in 'g' tolerance, but in how knackered you are after two or three high 'g' trips in a day.

Either way, it's amazing how quickly one recovered after some hop enhanced rehydration!

The question was why (or why not) O2 masks. Both sides of the argument have been expressed, same with g-pants. I'm absolutely sure the Blues have aleady thought of anything we have to offer. So it is, now, their choice. Their job is to look good and professional - not to other aviators, but to the public. And their act is top notch.

Safety wise, they are taking a risk. But they are US Navy aviators. And they are flying their flag brilliantly.

I stand by my safety aspects of wearing a mask. I respect their reasons for nor not so doing.

Anyway, what was the point of all that teeth whitening if no one ever sees it?

They have to look good for the Girls....and errrr....the Guys now don't they?

OK465,
Is it fair to summarise that argument as "small risks are not worth bothering with if there are big, unavoidable risks present"? That goes against a foundation principle of risk management, which is to eliminate risk wherever it is reasonably practicable to do so. It is not reasonably practicable to stop an aerobatic display team from pointing at the ground or at each other from time to time - but there are a whole host of mitigations in place for that, not least training and supervision.

Perhaps the easiest test to apply is the good old CNN test. A Blue Angel has crashed and the pilot is dead. The investigation has been published and a senior naval officer is taking questions at a press conference:

It wouldn't pass the test, would it? Heads would roll.

ES,

Let me get this straight....you are saying after a Sea Gull flying at 500 knots hits the windscreen of Handsome Young Blue's F-18, some Admiral is going to look silly explaining why HYB was not wearing an O2 Mask?

Just how much protection does an O2 mask really provide when something strong enough to pierce the Windscreen of an F-18 at 500 KT's comes smashing into the Pilots lower face?

"Anyway, what was the point of all that teeth whitening if no one ever sees it?"

Love it!

:ok:


.....BTW the Reds were the driving force behind the procurement of "prestige" Flying suits now worn by anyone & everyone...

Much easier to roll up the sleeves on..& not just for cocktail parties....;)

TSR2warton1966
 

Why?

AD'

Having seen my buddy's face after exactly that happened (although not in an F18), I'd say quite a lot.

+1 for the benefit of have my mask on when I met the wrong kind of bird.

As for my boyish good looks - well far too many on the forum worked out who I was years ago!

And until the late 80s the red suits were provided by a businessman who supported the Team, until in RAFSC Command Accounts we lobbied for them to be publically funded - eventually they were paid for from non-public funds until the argument was advanced that it was flight safety issue and the public finally coughed up. I am proud to have played a part in getting the "right" decision.

Sign of the times, and the expense of modern aircraft.....

Defense News: Swiss Outraged Over Plan To Cut Aerobatic Team

GENEVA — Many Swiss were outraged Wednesday after hearing that the country’s beloved aerobatic red planes with their characteristic white crosses, the Patrouille Suisse, will be cut from the Swiss air force by 2016.

“We will no longer have planes simply for folklore,” President Ueli Maurer told a parliamentary security policy commission meeting on Tuesday, according to the Basler Zeitung daily. The commission had been discussing Switzerland’s pending purchase of 22 JAS39 Gripen fighter jets from Sweden when a member reportedly asked about the future of the Patrouille Suisse, which have been a fixture in Swiss skies since1964.

The Swiss president, who is also the country’s defense minister and a member of the populist right Swiss People’s Party, told the gathering that as of 2016, the cherished aerobatic team would cease to exist. The revelation sparked outrage in Switzerland, with politicians leading the way.

“Maurer is underestimating the symbolic importance of the Patrouille Suisse,” Martin Landolt, head of the Conservative Democratic Party of Switzerland, told the 20Minuten.ch website. The head of the Christian Democratic Party, Christoph Darbellay, agreed and described the decision as “a provocation.”

A former pilot with the aerobatic team, also quoted by 20Minuten.ch, denounced the move, stressing that the Patrouille Suisse had never had an accident since its creation in 1964.

“The Patrouille is the best business card Switzerland has,” pilot John Huessy said, insisting, “It is unacceptable to say that what they do is about folklore.”

Had the Patrouille Suisse at yeovilton a few years ago - Brilliant! Much better than the Reds and they were a credit to their country in the way they acted and interacted.

Am I right in thinking the PS don't do their display job full time? I think they fly real jets as well. Top notch team.

Problem is, is anything can happen between now and 2016 still got 33 months for the Swiss. Or a miracle can happen and have the world's first Grippen display team. Who knows maybe Saab / BAe may sponsor them along with Breitling.

Speaking of which the Breitling team with their Aero L39 jets are still going strong (yes I know they're a private enterprise). Had the privilege of looking at their Blue Angels style paintwork copied jets on the static at le Bourget 2 years ago parked by the Lockheed Constellation.

Back to topic at hand - whats going down with the Reds, any more updates?
If all goes well then would we be looking at an all T2 equipped by 2015?

Cheers

The RAF barely have enough T2s for the trg role let alone an acrobatic team. There's even doubt that there are enough for a singleton display in '14.

I think your picture just made it onto the Reds' dartboard, Courtney

Slight thread drift LOL
I spent a very pleasant 3 weeks with the Swiss AF in 1986,out on the apron there were 2 Venoms parked...The 2 pilots about to strap in were chalk and cheese...one was a 'mature' gentleman (and he was a gentleman) - the other was a youngster !
Chatting to the 'mature' pilot - he was chuckling and saying ''only in the swiss AF could you start and finish your career on the same a/c'' :)
One day there was a sound like a fast vacuum cleaner and (I think) 19 two seat Vampires did a stream landing...fantastic :)
Most of the aircrew came to look at the 2 Hawks parked on the apron and did not believe me when told that one of them had 1200 hours on the clock,ISTR that the highest time Vampire had (at that time ) just over 2000 hrs.
The moral of this story...The swiss do not fork about and really look after their a/c (the Hunters and F5s were immaculate :)) and yes most of the aircrew are part time ...you could tell by the way Swissair a/c were flown...the turns always seemed a little steeper than other airlines :)
The Hawk T1 is a tough little a/c...I love em :)

Another of my life-long dreams realised at last, Fox3:ok:. Actually, it was a genuine question; I seemed to recall that the PS team fly front line ac as well as their display aircraft.

I'll bet I don't get invited to the Reds' Christmas party this year either. Come to think of it...