French Air Strikes Over Mali
 

Hi, I think there's no topic yet about this latest war.

Since friday the French decided they had to intervene to prevent Islamists overtaking Mali. Those already occupy half the country.

It seems french fighters stationed in Tsaad were there first. They apparently were already stationed there for some time (apparent having good low flying opportunities..
During the week-end Mirage2000 and Rafales were added. Unclear to me if the rebels were really stopped or are still advancing.

Airstrikes seem to concentrate in the narrow part of the country. Lots of countries around that seem moderately stable and have a history of violent civil wars, corruption, natural resources and tribal links.. I hope this won't spread..

http://nationalpostnews.files.wordpr...iattacksb.jpeg

Uh...Viva La France!


...but uh...why is this fighter pilot using a map like Granny Yokum? A little Nav system up-grade for our French Air Force friends please.


https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/i...f5FomsLeutzbRA Granny Yokum Low level Attack

Fairly normal to use road-maps for navigation in Africa. They cost just a few pennies at the local market.

Good overview of the situation in The Grauniad.

Oh yeah that's a good idea. Near mach, 80 feet off the ground and the wingman is reading an ONC map. I guess the lead is a woman.

Must be the the wherethefcukawee tribe.

France24 reporting that Britain has pledged "additional transport planes" - any confirmation?

Temp Spike, what do you mean by "near mach" in your criticism of the low level training route?

keesje: thanks for posting that video. That training route looks like a lot of fun.

probably worried about getting the wrong bushy-topped tree?

Pray tell how you use Tac Air to defeat an Insurgency without committing overwhelming numbers of ground forces?:ugh:

Are current day military leaders and politicians unable to grasp the lessons of Iraq and Afghanistan.....after having been there for years?:=

- watch this (largish) space.:ugh:

Is there any reason to deny the Tuareg a homeland? Maybe the lines on the map are wrong, and there is a natural border/breaking spot somewhere in the northeast of Mali.

As to homelands:

Kurds don't get one
Pashtun don't get one

Muslims in Bosnia get one
Kosovars get one
Jews get one
Slovaks get one
Ethnic Kuwaitis get one. (Heh, I expect some laughs at that one :E)

Who gets to choose? :confused:

France was forced to leap in when it became apparent that Mopti (and its airport) were about to fall. I suspect that now that the airport is secured, French forces will secure the South Western half of Mali. Mauritania, Algeria and Niger have all "closed their borders" with Mali, so the North Eastern half of Mali is now more isolated than previously (though I suspect that there is still a fair bit of cross border movement to Algeria and Mauritania).

The French plan is for ECOWAS troops to attempt to recover control of the NE half. I can't see that happening though. The only African troops in ECOWAS with any desert experience are Burkina and Niger. They would have to rely on French armour and air support.

It'll be interesting to see the outcome of the cabinet meeting today. UK top brass are apparently opposed to intervention, but there will be a lot of political pressure on Cameron to lend more support. French are also piling on pressure to Germans and Italians. Wouldn't be surprised if we end up giving more air support.

SASless...I agree.

Mechanized Infantry will be required. Accompanied with airmobile light Infantry and lots of attack helicopters. BUT, contact with these antagonists must be made first because they are not all terrorists being merely paid by terrorists to cause trouble and if it’s a jobs program they want, well that is preferable to war and mass slaughter.

Nearly choked on my wheaties (before I saw the qualification) on that one. A not too long ago Brit ex-ambassador to KSA made a rather memorable (and refreshingly non-PC) comment about Saudis and their lovely country that anyone with any experience of the Kuwaitis would say also applies to them - times two.

I really can't see that the West can keep sending (always too small, and always too late) "fire brigades" to quell the ever-growing number of political spot fires (set, almost always by the same AQ mob, it would seem) ad infinitium.

For one, we (the West) are broke, (even if too many of our citizens, particularly those with their hands out for endless government-supplied 'free stuff', haven't accepted that yet), and secondly, (particularly, but not only, those very same people with their hands out for 'free stuff') are tiring of their governments spending borrowed money to fix these many spot fires.

Imagine if WW2 had been fought the way we're dealing with this serious threat (for threat it is) to our society and way of life? It would still be going on today. The people we're (only 'semi') fighting respect only one thing - overwhelming strength. Until that is shown to them - and more importantly, to the men who are bankrolling them**, and in no uncertain terms, the ratchet is just going to go on tightening more and more.

** I for one think that the people in power in the West know exactly who those men are, but are unwilling to confront them.

I find myself almost expecting to see Barak Obama stepping off Air Force One waving a piece of paper declaring "peace in our time".

Andu....*...
 

Or another Bush debacle declaring mission accomplished a decade before the fact. Try Muesli. Wheaties are for children with anabolic steroid dreams of mindless grandeur.

Wait a Mo'.....were we not told the Guvmint was taking down all the financial support for the AQ Team? I know a lot of folks breathed a lot easier....in DC/London and Saudi when Bin Liner got whacked as he could probably tell some tales and name some names that folks would really not wish to see in the Morning Newspapers.

Well it felt and sounded like one of them did just that, in the dark, over chez nous about an hour ago.....no complaints from me.......

FWIW we live near a town that "hosts" one of the "Regiment Chasseur Parachutistes" so many of my kids' school friends have just been deprived of mama or Papa TFN (and FWIW they've lost a few in Afganistan).....It's far to easy to resort to stereotypes and crack jokes about the French and white flags, personally I wish them the best of luck.

looks like there are about 2,500 troops going in now and more about to deploy. There is a build up going on it would appear.

French Military are preparing for a long term offensive:

Mali : "Cette guerre est un engagement de long terme"

In France, it is regarded as the "second half of the Libya campaign", since the instability in Mali was a direct consequence of the Libya campaign. I think it inevitable that UK will increase its contribution sooner or later.

Temp spike

The navy put that banner up, not Bush.

The press jumped on it. Kinda the same way people think Palin said she could see Russia. Nothing like wanting it to be true to mislead the liberal sheep.

Situation seems very fluid. France seems to have decided to head up north alone, rather than wait for an African force to be assembled. They have sent a force of around forty APCs into the rebel territory.

The remnants of the Mali army have been defecting to the rebels, which may be a factor in the decision to press ahead quickly.

Bien joué, France!

Once again, France have been quick to step in and deal with the latest threat to world peace, no dithering like everyone else. Very pleased to see UK, US, Canada assisting. I wish we would do more.

Bonne chance et tout retour en toute sécurité! Vive la France.

:ok:


Edited to correct my dreadful French.

So who are this "French Air"? A new airline perhaps??

and why are they on strike.....???


Mind you, they are French :p



Sorry, couldn't resist that one; I know; coat, door......

According to Le Monde, French SF now involved in hand to hand fighting with rebels.

Combats "au corps corps" entre Franais et islamistes au Mali

French doing it properly - no p*ss*ng about with "precision strikes" from drones accidentally blowing up wedding parties...

Well said. That's how the French do things. Maybe we could learn a thing or two.

That's Côte d'Or, I think you'll find.

AND ANOTHER THING

[RANT] To those that think your "white flag" and similar jokes are amusing, these are brave professionals going in to sort out yet another Al Qa'ida threat and putting their lives on the line on our behalves. We should all be grateful to them; no, we should be doing a lot more to support them. I look forward to your reactions the next time anyone makes a similar 'joke' about your nation's troops in AFG. Maybe you'd like to to be the one to write letters to the families of our allies' military personnel if the the worst happens. Cheap shot, well out of order.[/RANT]

Awfully early to make predictions unless they're not predictions but swipes elsewhere given you haven't a clue as to the direction of the campaign unless you somehow have access to its tactics, plans, levels of equipment, logistics. ( you're welcome) and mission goals. None of which you do.

Forward looking statements are fraught with danger of failure.

WC - the fact that they have moved to hand to hand fighting so early in the conflict shows firstly that they have a lot of courage and second that they are taking care to single out the real enemy and not alienate the local population who, so far, are wholeheartedly supporting their invasion.

That they are in that proximity to enemy combatants using those measures indicates to me something has gone wrong. Minimizing civilian casualties by making a decision to physically engage is not sound military strategy as it places the French at a disadvantage and can potentially lead to a higher number of casualties. You don't buy lots of nice shiny kit to make a rational decision to put it aside and get in a knife fight. You don't sustain a war by unnecessarily putting your own troops in greater danger than need be, talk about a morale killer to be told drop your rifles and draw your fighting knives. You don't build support in the home front sending flag draped coffins home at a rate greater than the public can stomach.

If its a pride thing on your part, I get it, I don't doubt the bravery of the French troops involved.

West Coast,

In situations such as Mali, where there are centres of populations (nodes) separated by large distances, the main focus for fighting becomes these nodes. You will find that many of the French ground forces are operating in a FIBUA environment. FIBUA is taking place after air attacks on these nodes have taken place.

The Islamist fighters are also digging in in these node points. The French forces have to confront them in these locations.

I would suggest that these are correct tactics as well for many reasons.

Edited to add that you will also find that troops are more than likely making attempts at locating and repatriating those hostages of many nationalities that have been taken.

Is FIBUA is fighting in built up areas? MOUT in my lexicon.

If so, there a greater chance of physical encounters, but it's not what's planned. You simply do not enter a building with the intent of using your hands or a knife as a primary weapon. Hand to hand combat is rarely the proper tactic. It places the French at a disadvantage. There are weapons designed for close quarters battle, if the US military has them and uses them, I have to believe France being a professional military force has them and trains to use them as well.

You going to have a hard time convincing me that physical encounters are preferred method of the French military. It happens, but to infer its the preferred tactic is absurd.

West Coast,

My apologies, yes FIBUA is MOUT.

I suspect that the fighting "hand to hand" is meant to reflect the closeness of the fighting rather than actually fighting hand to hand.

There are tools for MOUT/ FIBUA. The USA has been able to afford many of them. Other nations not so many, but yes there are still some useful tools.

The French have reacted to the request for assistance in Mali very quickly. I suggest that they do not have all their tools with them, nor do they have sufficient troops to do anything other than what they are doing.

If they have troops in place, then any competent logistics load out would have them here as well. We're talking mostly about personal weapons and a differing set of tactics trained in garrison, not some convex box of exotic high tech goodies.

Unless you or trim stab have inside information from those there, theres not enough information available in the public domain to what the situation on the ground is and thus no way to pass any kind judgement as to success or otherwise.

That said, tactics while dynamic have a common theme of putting you in an unfair fight for the other guy.

You have to remember that the troops had to travel light. I can think of a number of portable tools that wouldn't have been taken which would have helped.

Also not having the specifics, I generically say that until the proper folks and the proper gucci is in place that they shouldn't engage. I recognize that situations, especially defensive ones don't always permit time, but if the mission is offensive (which it sounds like from news reports) after force protection is complete, THEN you push the offensive.

Well done France and other supporters.
This Muslim thing is only just beginning.

[Time to bring 'Beau' Geste out of retirement....]

Re FIBUA/MOUT - aka FISH = fighting in someone's house ...

Wiggy
I'm with you.

The French have a fine military and they use it without all the stupid fan-fare that we in the U.S., do. We should have the courage to send troops to help our French friends as they have done for us. Wonderful to see the Blue White and Red leading a coalition of like color national standards into glory defending the innocent!

Viva La France!

Good speech, TS. :ok:

Dunno if I entirely buy the talk of well armed and well trained militants.
I sure wouldn't want to be some scrawny, henna-bearded thug on the business end of a Rafaele, 2000D or F1.
Or facing French ground troops.
Those hand amputating, extremist bullies are finally going to get some.
Personally I hope the French infantry drive them all into a wadi and the Armee de l'Air turn them into charcoal.
Good hunting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by West Coast

I generically say that until the proper folks and the proper gucci is in place that they shouldn't engage

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by West Coast

after force protection is complete, THEN you push the offensive.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by West Coast

You going to have a hard time convincing me that physical encounters are preferred method of the French military. It happens, but to infer its the preferred tactic is absurd.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by West Coast

Minimizing civilian casualties by making a decision to physically engage is not sound military strategy

---

Those past quotes are such a beautiful illustration and summary of fundamentally different tactics and state of minds between the two countries and military, that I'm going to keep them as a gem for future use, and to forward them immediately to some people in higher positions, both at home and to the other side of the Atlantic. And you don't know who I am and who I know. That could even be a subject of a major discussion in some War College.
Basically in my country we take great pride in avoiding indiscriminate bombing, thus trying trying not to alienate the people we are supposed to help or liberate. The least we can say is that it has not been the case in recent years for another military, with the results you know. A couple of failures, from Vietnam to Irak and Afghanistan/Pakistan, should make you more humble.
You are famous for logistics and long-range support for your combat troops (namely LGB being fropped from F15E to smash a couple of guys in a cave with a machine gun - how effective) You are also famous for zapping everybody who has been looking at your soldiers strangely along the road. That's simply not the way we fight - and once again, I have a certain knowledge of the business - I cannot say more on this forum as I have to stay anonymous.
Yes, fighting "hand to hand" does reflect the closeness of the fighting rather than actually fighting hand to hand - no, we are not using daggers, just 50 Cal, 20 mm in turrets and guided missiles from either combat helicopters or APC, with the appropriate level of Air Support.
We are going to send our "Infanterie de Marine", "Cavalerie", "Parachutistes" and of course Foreign Legion, on appropriate trucks (the famous VLRA) and light reconnaissance vehicules, also some wheeled sorts of battle tanks, all of them with already extensive combat experience of the African bush, not mentioning the Afghan or Bosnian mountains or the Guyana forests.
We will accept to take some risks and casualties (hopefully if they are from the other side it will be better) As our President said two days ago " we will destroy them, and if possible, take them as prisoners "