MEDALS AND CLASPS
BBC News - Arctic convoys: PM announces medals for veterans
At last a clasp in recognition for the Bomber Command crews sacrifice. Also men of the arctic convoys are to be awarded a medal. Aaron. |
An Arctic Convoy lapel badge was instigated in 2006. I have seen these adapted for wear on the Atlantic Star ribbon. It's not sure whether this announcement refers to a clasp or a new medal - I suspect the former, similarly the proposed Bomber Command award.
Good luck to these guys, but I am confused at Sir John's remarks that Bomber Command had been treated inconsistently with those who served in Fighter Command. Other than the very limited number who received the 'Battle of Britain' clasp, Fighter Command received no special award either. The trouble is, once you start straying from the original idea of theatre stars and honour specific formations there's no end to it. |
finish up like the USAF and other Ruritanean forces...............
Don't the Israeli's just have a single medal for bravery? |
Issued at bar mitzvah?
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A colleague of mine went to a Black Tie dinner last week and noted a retired Major in his late 60s wearing the Queen Elizabeth II Diamond Jubilee miniature medal. When he asked him how he had been awarded it he said it was acceptable to buy it and wear it as he had served during the Queens reign. Is this correct?
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No, in short. Doesn't stop 'em buying it though. My Dad is the same - feels that as he "served for 37 years, man and boy", he deserved both the QGJM and QDJM - despite not being eligible for either.
Probably because as an ex-Pongo with just 3 (earned) gongs, he can't bear it that his commissioned Crab son has 9. |
Originally Posted by Spit the Dog
(Post 7585785)
A colleague of mine went to a Black Tie dinner last week and noted a retired Major in his late 60s wearing the Queen Elizabeth II Diamond Jubilee miniature medal. When he asked him how he had been awarded it he said it was acceptable to buy it and wear it as he had served during the Queens reign. Is this correct?
With the change in age retirement it would be possible for an officer to be an RO beyond the age of 65; I retired at 67. OTOH as ROs paid by the CS rather than the military we were not awarded the GJM but the rules might have changed. |
Didn't think so....
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This gentleman retired many years ago as I know his wife.
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1. Spit, not entitled.
2. Roger, 9? Nig.;) |
finish up like the USAF and other Ruritanean forces............... Don't the Israeli's just have a single medal for bravery? I would have thought there are better arguments against awarding a medal so long after the event, but I don't believe there were many Ruritanians on Arctic convoys. |
TTN:
...I am confused at Sir John's remarks that Bomber Command had been treated inconsistently with those who served in Fighter Command. Other than the very limited number who received the 'Battle of Britain' clasp, Fighter Command received no special award either. The trouble is, once you start straying from the original idea of theatre stars and honour specific formations there's no end to it. I too am confused about what is now to happen, are the Arctic Convoyers to get a separate Star now? Are the surviving Bomber Boys to get a clasp (presumably to their France Germany or Aircrew Europe Star)? If that is the case it would seem strange that a Campaign, awful though it was, that cost 3000 lives gets a medal, while another awful one that cost 55,500 lives just gets a clasp. Even so I suspect that the next retrospective act of this PM will be to apologise for the Bombing Campaign. That then should tidy up all the loose ends, shouldn't it? |
Wouldn't worry about it Chug, Bomber Commands sacrifices are it's own epitaph; everyone knows what they did and how many were lost. The dead don't need medals, they just need remembering, and I'm sure we all do that. I have an aunt who used to drive the crews out to their Halifaxes at Burn, it's still like it was yesterday to her and she's still haunted by the boys who didn't come back.
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Thing
Don't tell your aunt but 578Sqn are having their annual wreath laying at Burn Village in May 2013. 431Sqn RCAF had their's in October, current Sqn CO and her Sqn Cheif WO attended the memorial unveiling and march past by local air cadets. CO kindly took the salute too. Village Council have asked the cadets to parade again for 578Sqn. |
Good morning,
A quick question on numbers of ribbons per row on No 1 Service Dress: A colleague, like myself and serving in a very remote location, recently had his medals and ribbons mounted by a Regtl Tailor, as part of a job lot of QDJMs. He's got 8 medals (not unusual this day and age) and the ribbons were mounted in two complete rows. At a recent event in his No 1s, he was taken aside by a visiting Wg Cdr and told off 'they should be in rows of 1, 3, 4.' Is this so? I had a similar experience a few years ago when military tailors at Aldershot (the wonderfully-named Glover and Ryder) mounted my (then) 5 ribbons in a 2+3 configuration. This was wrong, apparently. |
From an RAF perspective the Wg Cdr was wrong! :ugh:
AP 1358 Chap 8 Parae 0829; Positioning of Breast Ribbons........A row is to consist of not more than four ribbons. When more than four ribbons are worn, they are to be made up to display as many complete rows of four as possible with any incomplete row at the top........ http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcms/mediafi...18430AAA8A.pdf Can't speak for the Army or Navy of course. Daf Edited to get rid of a load of blah that can be read, by those who so wish/are bored, by following the link. |
Army rules are as follows....... The first row should be central for the first and subsequent ribbons until the breast pocket width is complete. In the case of some individuals, this may be up to five ribbons. Once the first row is complete, each subsequent row should start on the extreme left as worn until complete and so on. Medal ribbons should not be obscured by the lapel. In simple terms, the collection should resemble a right angled triangle and not a pyramid.
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As someone who reckons to know a bit about medals my own ribbons on my old number one are correctly mounted as per regulations - ie in a neat row of one ;)
Re Spit the Dog's major, of course he wasn't entitled to wear the QDJM, miniature or full size, although there's nothing to stop him buying one as a souvenir. That said I used to do a steady trade in restrikes/copies which were bought by ex-service types who felt they had missed out in the medal stakes. I strongly suspect a lot of them got an airing on Remembrance Sunday, etc, and of course some of the guys turned into the sort of Walt that we've discussed on here at various times. |
Originally Posted by Spit the Dog
(Post 7585840)
This gentleman retired many years ago as I know his wife.
:} |
Rather not....she is the Mayor !
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Don't tell your aunt but 578Sqn are having their annual wreath laying at Burn Village in May 2013. |
I was somewhat saddened by a letter in today's Times from a Bomber Command veteran, a holder of the DFC, who was stating his opinion that whereas the Arctic veterans would appear to be getting a medal, the Bomber Command chaps were only to get a clasp to their star, which he described as "adding insult to injury"
Far be it from me to criticize an elderly gentleman who served gallantly in a campaign that I cannot even imagine, but I nevertheless feel that my earlier statement that there is no end to it once you start messing around with medals from old campaigns is starting to be proved correct. |
TN, quite. Did anyone complain about the Burma/Pacific Star either/or as they wanted to limit the total number of campaign stars?
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Originally Posted by Sloppy Link
(Post 7586984)
Army rules are as follows....... The first row should be central for the first and subsequent ribbons until the breast pocket width is complete. In the case of some individuals, this may be up to five ribbons. Once the first row is complete, each subsequent row should start on the extreme left as worn until complete and so on. Medal ribbons should not be obscured by the lapel. In simple terms, the collection should resemble a right angled triangle and not a pyramid.
References are D/DPS(A)/25/12/00/PS12(A) dated 15 Oct 10 and Army Briefing Note 10-12 dated 2 Feb 12. As an aside both the Army and RAF regulations mandate a gap between rows (for fewer than 5 rows). Although, military tailors don't appear to bother with this. |
Ribbons per row
Thanks for the responses. As I thought at the time, the Visiting Wg Cdr was wrong with the 1, 3, 4 instruction to my RAF colleague. A friend also had his ribbons done by well- known medallist but when they came back they were about 2/3 the height of RAF ones. When he questioned this he was told that this was the 'Cavalry' style! But as we know, there is no consistency with Army officers uniforms.
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Every day is a school day. Regardless of the triangle vs pyramid issue, there should still only be one incomplete row (unless the lapel dictates).
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This seems to be an appropriate forum to make some enquiries about medals/campaign ribbons.
I do not have a military background but have had an interest in the display of awards on uniforms. I have several queries... 1 Can anyone recommend any books that will explain the basics of decorations. 2 Is it my imagination that the Americans and Russians always seem to have decorations all over their uniforms. Compared to some of the Skippers I flew with in my early days of airline flying who were ex Bomber Command, these people appear to have been in every war/conflict in recent history. thanks in anticipation. Emeritus. |
TTN:
I was somewhat saddened by a letter in today's Times from a Bomber Command veteran, a holder of the DFC, who was stating his opinion that whereas the Arctic veterans would appear to be getting a medal, the Bomber Command chaps were only to get a clasp to their star, which he described as "adding insult to injury" PN: they wanted to limit the total number of campaign stars? |
Originally Posted by emeritus
(Post 7591026)
This seems to be an appropriate forum to make some enquiries about medals/campaign ribbons.
I do not have a military background but have had an interest in the display of awards on uniforms. I have several queries... 1 Can anyone recommend any books that will explain the basics of decorations. 2 Is it my imagination that the Americans and Russians always seem to have decorations all over their uniforms. Compared to some of the Skippers I flew with in my early days of airline flying who were ex Bomber Command, these people appear to have been in every war/conflict in recent history. thanks in anticipation. Emeritus. |
What is it about the European Bombing Campaign that sets it apart from the other major ones in that Theatre to be denied a Campaign Medal in its own right? Attempting to mess around with this system at this late date is only going to stir up old inter-service rivalries and lead to dissatisfaction. |
TTN, I'm glad to hear that you were not criticising the DFC Bomber veteran but rather the decision to alter the WWII Campaign Medal awarding criteria, but the fact remains they have been altered. Just as all the airspace over occupied territory was eligible for the Aircrew Star, so all the Northern Seas, ie the Atlantic and Arctic Oceans, were eligible for the Atlantic Star. Now it seems those two seas are to provide for separate medals. If that is the case, why should not the airspace of the occupied nations of Western Europe and those of the far more dangerous and well defended airspace of the Reich and Eastern Europe be similarly separated medal wise?
You have a point about the wisdom of retrospective tampering, but that it seems is what is afoot, in which case the tampering should be even handed at least. To put the Strategic Bombing Campaign on a par with the Battle of Britain by allotting clasps to each is a nonsense. The clue is in their titles, one was a Campaign, the other was not. The uneven and unfair decision of handing the Arctic Sailors their long sought after medal while denying the same to the Bombers does indeed add "insult to injury" in my view. |
Chugalug2 - "Just as all the airspace over occupied territory was eligible for the Aircrew Star"
Not quite - 205 Group Italy, operations ranging over Poland (Warsaw Airlift), Germany (Munich). Austria, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania (inc Ploesti), Bulgaria, Yugoslavia (inc mining Danube), Albania, Greece and Italy also France (Operation Dragoon) not eligible for Aircrew Europe or France & Germany!!! and officially my Dad (A/G, RAFVR attached 34 then 31 Sqd SAAF), wasn't permitted to wear his Polish medals either!!! PZU - Out of Africa (Retired) |
You make the point far better than I could, pzu. How could Air Operations against the enemy in the areas you list not be eligible for the Aircrew Europe Star (particularly Ploesti!)? It seems that these post WWII decisions were both arbitrary and unfair. Naturally the unfairness rankles with those involved in specific campaigns (such as the European Strategic Bombing one) who received a generic rather than specific campaign medal. What is far worse is to be involved in operations within the generic medal's supposed criteria, only to be denied it completely! I sympathise with your Dad and his comrades if they were denied any such campaign Star.
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They received the Italy Star, which was 'expanded' to include Balkan operations
PZU - Out of Africa (Retired) |
emeritus, no one seems to have answered your question. (Sorry Tocsin missed your post).
Originally Posted by emeritus
(Post 7591026)
This seems to be an appropriate forum to make some enquiries about medals/campaign ribbons.
1 Can anyone recommend any books that will explain the basics of decorations. There are decorations such as the VC, GC, DSC, DFC, AFC and GM, DSM, DCM, AFM. The difference was that officers got the crosses and other ranks the medals. the exception was the VC. Then more recently this differentiation was abolished. Awards such as MBE, OBE, CBE, KCBE in the military are rank related with the C and K being automatic. Turning to campaign medals, there were just the 3 in WW1. In WW2 there were 7 campaign medals with a maximum of 5 to anyone person. If that person would have qualified for more then they were given a clasp to add to one of the others. My father qualified for 6 but only got the Pacific clasp to add to the Burma Star and the France and Germany clasp to add to the Atlantic Star. Then there were other medals such as the coronation and jubilee medals, general service medals with different forces such as the RN and police having different ribbons. Latterly there have been many more campaigns. 2 Is it my imagination that the Americans and Russians always seem to have decorations all over their uniforms. Now the Americans are something different and that could justify a book. Some are awarded where a unit receives a citation. Now I challenge anyone to accurately read the salad dressing and say what the all mean. |
I heard once that anyone in the US forces would get a medal just for being more than 3000 miles from base while on duty, regardless why.
Don't know how true that is but its believeable. |
Originally Posted by clicker
(Post 7592143)
I heard once that anyone in the US forces would get a medal just for being more than 3000 miles from base while on duty, regardless why.
Don't know how true that is but its believeable. |
An interesting variation is why we have a general service medal. In the Army/RAF there was one before 1962 and one after 1962 with many different bars added to them. It would have been logical to continue with the GSM for Sierra Leone etc.
The Falklands would appear to be the first of the new medals, and well deserved at that, followed by the GW1 medal. From then we see a raft of NATO, UN, and then OSM issued which mark our change of military from largely stand-alone to a coalition partner. Will the GSM series ever be resumed or will it eventually fade away? |
Tocsin / PN...
Many thanks for the info. Will follow up on your suggestions. Emeritus. |
I've worked with Americans of all services in my time and now that I understand their system of medals, ribbons and badges I'm a fan.
Firstly don't try and compare it with the UK system, they are apples and pears and what works for them might not work for us and vice versa. With the US system you get to see an individual's military CV on their chest, especially useful when in a meeting and needing to ascertain someone's credibility or walking into an office or ops room and needing to ascertain who is the "go to" guy. At Aviano I went to the MT office accompanying a USAF officer who looked around and then walked across to a particular airman, asked a series of complicated questions, got the answers he needed, thanked the individual and walked out. As we walked to our car he said how easy it had proven to be once he spotted the Outstanding Airman ribbon on the airman's chest as he knew he would be a quality individual able to deal with his particularly obscure query. In my opinion the US system is neither better or worse, simply different. |
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