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Long Range SAR
A year or so ago we were, after the demise of Nimrod, discussing the lack of capability to provide any SAR support out around the 20/25W area. It was only a matter of time before such a lack would come back and bite us.
I, (and others) pointed out that in the past all C130 crews did SAR training on PRT. Crews sent to MPA did fairly extensive SAR training and often carried out SAR standby and Missions. It would be perfectly possible and practical to equip and train a small number of J crews to do mission until a more suitable MPA aircraft was available. Does anyone know if we are making any efforts to reintroduce a credible long range SAR capability? |
I believe the answer is no although I'm sure it would be a requirement for any future MPA.
Cue for LJ to open up on how we could strap 3 ASRA kits underneath Reaper!! |
I believe the Americans no longer run permanent P3 detachments at Bermuda, Keflavik and Lajes.
So it would seem the North Atlantic nations are reducing there capability of intervening in a North Atlantic disaster at exactly the same time as there is a massive increase in passenger traffic. Good plan. I wonder who will get the blame when the inevitable happens? |
Maritime Environment Training
I’m fairly sure that SAR training is not currently high on the agenda of the Herc fleet.
Sometime last year a Maritime sortie was flown by a Herc with some former Nimrod crew as observers on board. It became apparent that the C-130 crew needed some training at least in recognising different ship types. Their reliance on the ‘Shipspot’ system is not enough. A training package was made and this now sits in the Falkland Islands pre-deployment training box. As far as I know it is not routinely taught to all C-130 crews. Not their fault but without training and experience they will struggle to understand the Maritime environment. They already have a full time task supporting our current Afghan adventure and everything else. If we were to only train a ‘small number’ of crews in the role how would you manage those ‘few’ to always be ‘on call’? To do the job properly to achieve around the clock cover you would need to train a lot of already overstretched crews for a role they may never need to be called on. There is little or no corporate knowledge of the maritime environment in their fleet to call on. They are already doing a first class professional job it seems unfair to ask them to take on another one without any training. |
There is presently NO long range SAR asset. The end..
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HAS 59
Good answer. We will live to regret this. |
I don't think there has been a requirement in the past 12 months for a long range SAROP in the Atlantic, and i guess that until there is one, our politicians will keep their heads in the sand (or up their arses) over the issue.
dalek Whilst I agree with you about traffic across the pond increasing, the hard fact is that it is a great deal safer than it probably ever used to be. I don't cite that as an excuse or a reason NOT to have a LRSAR capability, but those at the top undoubtedly will. The C-130 guys are overstretched and whilst the concept is plausable, it is really a non-starter for long range SAROPS. The Hercules is a great aircraft, but it is not a SAR platform frankly, and it never will be and to further burden the truckie fleet with another 'add on' tasking should not even be considered. The FIs Herc's are however a different matter, and I'm sure they provide a first class, if limited SAR cover. Unfortunately it won't be until there is some major disaster involving a cruise ship, or a bunch of yachts or something of that nature that requires urgent SAR assistance, that the case for answering the long range SAR asset problem will rear its head again. Until then, we are simply riding our luck! However............the day will arrive when....................... Merry Christmas to all Winco |
People who argue the case for an MPA based on "SAR" are delusional.
We desperately need an MPA for military reasons, but the the SAR idea is silly. The same money the Nimrod would have cost if spent in the NHS would save vastly more lives, even if you lost a cruise liner every month. There is a price on life, as every reasoning adult/NICE knows, and the price per life saved by long range SAR is staggering. Argue on the basis of warfighting/defense of the realm, not silliness. It just makes it easier to dismiss all your arguments. Incidentally, the argument also goes for rotary SAR. Just silly, really, but lots of fun. |
Tourist,
People who argue the case for an MPA based on "SAR" are delusional. Betty, There is presently NO long range SAR asset. The end.. But I'm sure you meant to say No long range airborne SAR asset.... :8 |
We have never had a long range airborne SAR asset.
Only a Search asset. Rescue needs a helicopter, or yes a ship. ...and don't make me laugh that dropping a life raft is a "rescue".:ugh: You get rescued in most cases from a liferaft, not into one. Yes I would agree that that is the way to describe the SAR aspects of an MPA, as a freebie bonus if you have the aircraft. |
Party Animal, I concur. However, this thread is about the airborne "bit". I thought that was obvious.
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betty,
Since when has anything on here been obvious? Duncs:ok: |
Originally Posted by Tourist
Rescue needs a helicopter, or yes a ship.
...and don't make me laugh that dropping a life raft is a "rescue".:ugh: You get rescued in most cases from a liferaft, not into one. Yes I would agree that that is the way to describe the SAR aspects of an MPA, as a freebie bonus if you have the aircraft.
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
...Fulton first used instrumented dummies as he prepared for a live pickup. He next used a pig, as pigs have nervous systems close to humans. Lifted off the ground, the pig began to spin as it flew through the air at 125 mph (200 km/h). It arrived on board uninjured but in a disoriented state. Once it recovered, it attacked the crew.[2] The acceleration experienced by the pickup was 7 g's.[3] Later the US Navy tested the Fulton system fitted to modified S-2 Trackers carrier based antisubmarine patrol aircraft for use in rescuing downed pilots. It is unknown whether a Fulton equipped S-2 was ever used on a combat mission... |
We have never had a long range airborne SAR asset. |
FODPlod:
I'm pretty certain that Fulton has not been used in maritime SAR, and is pretty unlikely to be used ever again. That's what I was told in a brief at Eglin AFB in 1985 ;) |
I agree with the cost:benefit analysis. Just how many ASRA sets have done what they were designed to do?
I always believed that if I jumped out over the ocean, I would probably call it a day, open the goon suit zip and join the Titanic. Either that or get bonked on the head by a ruddy great dinghy! LJ PS - anyone ever though about putting ASRA on a UAV? :} |
LJ
"Just how many ASRA sets have done what they were designed to do?" If you're going to make that argument then presumably you agree with the logical conclusion of the comment the FAA guys love making on pprune to wind up the RAF, how many aircraft have the RAF shot down since 1945? Given the answer, and the logic of your argument, presumably we can scrap the RAF AD fleet, we'll save much more money than the cost of a few ASRA kits. Then again, how many RN SSNs have ever sunk a hostile vessel, one I think, so, using the logic of your argument, let's get rid of of RN SSNs, we'll save a fortune!. The purpose of an ASRA is to preserve the life of the casualty until a permanent rescue can be effected by means of ship or helo. Carrying ASRA kit in a suitable aircraft usually involves no cost penalty in terms of drag, fuel available, etc. If you have a long range search asset, equipping it with ASRA is normally a very low cost option which may, or may not, make the difference between life and death. To a certain extent it's a freebie... Of course if you don't have a long range search asset... |
Well I know at least one that did!
During the preparations to abandon ship using the 20 man inflatable liferaft stowed on the boat deck - portside - the 2nd Engineer's wife (the supernumerary), the Chief Officer and a GP seaman were washed overboard. Fortunately an RAF Nimrod aircraft had arrived over the ship at this crucial time and they dropped an air-sea rescue pack including two inflatable liferafts, one of which the three persons in the sea eventually boarded. |
And one that didn't!
M.V. Dara was a British Indian Steam Navigation Company liner, built in 1948, Barclay, Curle and Co; 5,030 tons 398.7 x 54.8; 14 knots; oil engines. Dara mostly travelled between the Arabian Gulf and the Indian continent, carrying expatriate passengers who had employment in the Gulf States. She had accomodation for 20 1st Class, 54 2nd Class and 1377 deck passengers. A bomb exploded on board, while off the coast of Dubai, on the 8th April 1961 which caused the vessel to eventually sink. It was never clearly established who planted the bomb, or why, but there was a high loss of life attributed to the incident, despite the fact that no one was on board when it sank. At the time, it was the worst peace time disasters on the high seas, second to the Titanic. There is some conjecture that, due to the circumstances, the perpetrator of the crime may also have been on board at the time of the explosion. Captained by Charles Elson, there was a total of 819 on board, including 19 officers and 113 crew; 238 died from burns or drowning. RAF Search and Rescue: - The following message was left in the guest book by Jack Frith on the 21/10/04. He has kindly agreed for me to repeat the message here, (thanks Jack). I was the captain of the Search and Rescue Shackleton that was sent from Aden to search for and aid the Dara. The photograph that you are using was taken by one of my crew from the beam position on the aircraft when we arrived on scene. I dropped a Lindholm rescue gear (contained a dingy, food, water etc) to what appeared to be some surviviors in the water but since no effort was made to reach the gear it had to be assumed that we were too late. Seems a long time ago now. |
Biggus
I've no doubt it is a freebie, but we shouldn't use LRSAR as the justification for the UK's ASW/ASuW capability gap. It would seem to be a bit of an 'also ran' in the justification process. Also... presumably we can scrap the RAF AD fleet We only have requirements and plans for swing-role FJs these days (Typhoon II and Lightning II). LJ |
dalek, the Portuguese Air Force provide SAR cover from Lajes with EH101 and C-295!
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Re lajes - good to hear they've upgraded. About 10 years ago, the only permanent SAR asset was a Skyvan or similar which had VERY limited range and capability - I know 'cos I spoke to the crew about what they could offer.
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I hear Kermit Weeks has a Sunderland close to being air / seaworthy, perhaps if we asked him nicely he would lease it to us!
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We had a jumper on our cruise ship on a transatlantic. Sea conditions were favourable and there would have been a good chance of a successful search by LRMPA. The idiot was very lucky to be found, in the pitch dark, by one of our fast rescue craft.
Had we not found him then an aircraft search would have been essential for quickly covering a large area. As for ASRA, the AEW Shacks also carried ASR although I don't think it was ever used but I am sure a downed F4 crew would have been pleased to see it. On Nimrod there were occasions when all ASR and life rafts were dropped and were essential to survival pending rescue. The Nimrod was also better as a search platform than a Sea King which could then maximise its endurance for rescue. |
I don't have many problems with most things said here.
Tourist. An MPA based only on SAR would not be cost effective. An MPA that could not, as one of its (many) roles, provide, Search, Rescue Co-ordintion and ASRA/ Supply drop would also have diminished capabilities. The main point I am raising is that there is no Long Range MPA in the foreseable pipeline. Those of you who dismiss the capability of a C130 do carry out credible Long Range SAR are just plain wrong. It does this job for many militaries all over the world. I think the main point raised by HAS 59 was not his concern about the ability of the Airframe or the crews. It is just that we do not have the Frames, the Hours and the Spare Capacity it would take to provide the adequate Training and Operational resources. After Afghanistan, that could change. There is at the moment great pressure to scrap the J (lack of planned funding), before the end of its Operational Life. Its main supporters are the Special Forces who can't see the point of taking small groups of men into dangerous situations in very large expensive A340's. By 2016 we may well have spare J's, crews and hours and still no MPA aircraft on the horizon. This would then become a Secondary Role to SF. |
And one that didn't! Quote: M.V. Dara was a British Indian Steam Navigation Company liner, built in 1948, Barclay, Curle and Co; 5,030 tons 398.7 x 54.8; 14 knots; oil engines. Dara mostly travelled between the Arabian Gulf and the Indian continent, carrying expatriate passengers who had employment in the Gulf States. She had accomodation for 20 1st Class, 54 2nd Class and 1377 deck passengers. A bomb exploded on board, while off the coast of Dubai, on the 8th April 1961 which caused the vessel to eventually sink. It was never clearly established who planted the bomb, or why, but there was a high loss of life attributed to the incident, despite the fact that no one was on board when it sank. At the time, it was the worst peace time disasters on the high seas, second to the Titanic. There is some conjecture that, due to the circumstances, the perpetrator of the crime may also have been on board at the time of the explosion. Captained by Charles Elson, there was a total of 819 on board, including 19 officers and 113 crew; 238 died from burns or drowning. Quote: RAF Search and Rescue: - The following message was left in the guest book by Jack Frith on the 21/10/04. He has kindly agreed for me to repeat the message here, (thanks Jack). I was the captain of the Search and Rescue Shackleton that was sent from Aden to search for and aid the Dara. The photograph that you are using was taken by one of my crew from the beam position on the aircraft when we arrived on scene. I dropped a Lindholm rescue gear (contained a dingy, food, water etc) to what appeared to be some surviviors in the water but since no effort was made to reach the gear it had to be assumed that we were too late. Seems a long time ago now.[ (And its not just about 'droning' around for hours and doing it automatically. Until you've spent hours doing a visual search for a dinghy or body, you have no idea just how hard it is to spot them!) |
Pontious
"The Nimrod was also better as a search platform than a Sea King which could then maximise its endurance for rescue." Whilst often the case, this is not by any means always true. If the cloudbase is 50 ft, then a seaking is vastly superior. The big plus of the Nimrod on a long ranger from our point of view was always the fact that the search could be done before we got there rather than it could be done better. That and of course it was always nice to have someone above in comms if we went in. |
insert usually or mainly or any other modifier.
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Originally Posted by dalek
Those of you who dismiss the capability of a C130 do carry out credible Long Range SAR are just plain wrong. It does this job for many militaries all over the world.
HC-130H/J: C-37A : Platforms : CG-711 Overview: The C-130H is a mainstay of the United States Coast Guard air fleet. From The Shield of Freedom, 2006: The Coast Guard's fleet currently includes five HC-130H (1500 series), 22 HC-130H-7 (1700 series), and six HC-130J models of the famous Hercules, widely recognized as the West's premier military transport. The Coast Guard's history with the "Herc" dates to 1958, when it first ordered the R8V-1G (HC-130B) model, (now retired.) The configuration of these aircraft is suitable for a variety of missions. The four-engine, high-wing aircraft can carry 92 passengers, although the usual number is 44, with 14 web seats and pallets with 15 airline-style seats each. The HC-130H can also carry 51,000 pounds of cargo, rescue, or oil-pollution-control equipment. Operated by a crew of seven (7), the HC-130H can airdrop life rafts or dewatering pumps, or dispersant for oil pollution control. Air Stations
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C130 Search Rescue
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/s...e-in-gibraltar Probably quite difficult to get a fix without an EO/IR unless this is one of the equipped ones. |
A dedicated C-130 SAR platform would be fantastic but, I suspect, too expensive for the UK to maintain? UK Coastguard C-130 SAR? Where do I sign up? ;)
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thunderbird7,
And if you got your dream, but were based at Kodiak...? ;) |
Well, Kinloss was similar... ;)
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A future MPA might as well combine Search and support better Rescue..
http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z...ptmerlinII.jpg |
Hi all,
Just a point to note. The Irish Air Corps CN-235M's carryout maritime patrols seven days a week and are equipped with a raft launcher carrying four, ten man rafts should the mission become a SAR top cover job. So your not alone out there ;) BW |
BW,
Appreciated. However, can the IAC CN-235 physically get out as far as 4505N 02955W, and if it could, would it ever actually be made available to assist the UK if it were requested to go that far? I suspect the answer to both of those questions would be no! |
how many requests for assistance are made way out in the Atlantic over say the last 20 years?
Just asking..................... |
HH,
I don't have exact numbers, but the MR2 certainly flew one during its final few months in service all the way out to 26W looking for a vessel that the Canadians thought they had heard call a mayday. Satellite info was inconclusive (single hit) so we launched as fear was vessel may have sunk. Turns out we didn't find anything of note, but that was because the vessel in distress was in the southern and not the northern hemisphere. Mayday call was so weak it was difficult to make out the latitude clearly enough. During my time on the kipper fleet, there were probably about half a dozen a year on average that extended beyond 15W although I'm sure the ARCC will have accurate info if you ask them nicely? |
HH
I am sure someone has access to the figures but over the life of the Nimrod the requests for assistance have been in the hundreds rather than tens. Even when the accident is within range of a helicopter there is great benefit when an aircraft of long endurance can act as co-ordinator. I was at Kinloss in 1979 when the Fasnet disaster struck. Ther were twenty or more yachts all in danger of sinking. They were within range of the SAR choppers, but covering a large area of ocean. It was the Nimrods co-ordinating Heli, Naval and Merchant efforts that saved many lives. |
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