NutherA2

I was unaware of Javelins being fitted with Rebecca X, but I am not surprised.

We tanked a Sqdn of Jav's to Singapore in 1961, this was of course after a period of training for the Jav jockeys.

I have some colour slides of dawn start ups and take offs from Gan.

The topped up Valiants used water meth for their take offs, the locals were a little upset by the noise that woke them up :ok:

Ian, I should have realised that the Rebecca/Eureka system was part of the IFR (later AAR) setup. I know with the 200 Mc/s setup that Rebecca could even be used as an emergency comms system but can't remember how. We only used it on the Varsity.

With our kit you could do a Rebecca homing by balancing the left and right strobes on the CRT and also reading the range. I believe on the Provosts it was improved and there was a left/right needle as well as a range readout.

As a navigation aid Tacan was far superior giving both range and bearing and more accurately too. For air-to-air use Rebecca had the edge as A-A Tacan had no bearing facility.

It gave you 1,000 lbs more thrust per engine and south of Dover you needed it. It would run for one minute and then you lost 4.000lbs of thrust. At Nairobi International this was precisely the point where the mainwheels were being dragged from the runway.

This was Rebecca Mk VII, known as DME for Distance Measuring Equipment. It worked on the same frequencies as Rebecca IV and in conjunction with the same Eureka transponders. Because it was for operation by Drivers (Airframe) not Navigators it was simplified to 'Meter Display' :ok:

I came across it, in an earlier incarnation, on Hunters. Also the 90 Group/Signals Command calibration Varsity's had both Rebecca MK IV and Mk VII fitted. They couldn't be used at the same time as there was only one set of aerials that were manually switched to one or the other.

I installed the Eureka VII at Orange in 1958 and then flew in the Varsity that did the calibration. The shadow of Mount Ventaux caused my installation to fall below the standard for a Class A beacon. But nothing I could do about that.

Ian

I flew one of the Javelins on that detachment and have very clear memories of the larger than planned formations when one of the tanker squadron commanders (Wg Cdr Burberry?) changed the batting order a bit to solve problems arising from an imbalance of Javelin & Valiant numbers.

On Day 1, Coltishall to Akrotiri, once we reached the Mediterranean we had a Balbo of 10 aircraft, 5 Javs with a tanker each. On Day 4, we needed to get 6 Javelins from Karachi to Gan with only 3 serviceable Valiants. Th boss got all 9 of us airborne together, had us take all the fuel we could off 2 of the tankers & himself led the remaining vic of 7 aircraft to Gan. We then had an hour or two with 3 Javs on each wing of a Valiant whose white paint scheme was an ideal camouflage in the ITCZ cirrus we flew through.

I believe this in-flight refuelled squadron deployment to FEAF was the first such exercise and was well timed to get us out of the UK for the worst of the weather in the notorious winter of 1962/63.

NutherA2,

I think that you and I were on different detachments.

The 'orrible winter of 62/63 I read about in the papers, as I was posted to Akrotiri in Oct 62. During the Cuban Missile Crises, no less!

The time 214 took Javelins to Singapore, we staged through Akrotiri, Karachi and Gan on successive days, and I don't remember any a/c not flying on the scheduled day.

I was in a small group that stayed in Gan for 3 weeks, with 2 Valiant's and not a lot of work. A lot of Bridge was played.

I also believe that 'the other tanker squadron', 90 Sqdn, took Javelins to Singapore sometime after 214 did. I know that while I was in Akrotiri 214 tanked Javelins to somewhere in India for some exercise, that would have been between Oct 62 and Oct 64.

I'm away from home at the moment and my slide collection with dates is not available, but I'm pretty sure that the trip I was on was 1961. Mind you on 214 we did so many short detachments I'm liable to get them mixed up. Especially after half a century.

Thanks for the correction, Ian, "my" detachment was in January, 1963. I think it may have been the first refuelled deployment of a full squadron;we took 12 Javelins and staged Colishall - Akrotiri - Bahrein - Karachi - Gan - Tengah.

Having Water Meth on the tanker Valiants (I think it was only in the tanker version) was a godsend. As mentioned by fareastdriver and ian16th it gave a boot up the proverbial at just the right time. I remember an occasion in Malta with number of squadron aircraft recovering to Marham. Each co pilot careufly worked out the T/O and all agreed water meth was not needed on the shortiish runway (now the longest) ln use. The first aircraft rolled clean. However when it was 2/3 down the runway his jet exhaust turned black. Number two made to half way and the rest used it from start. The engineers were not amused as it used up engine life.

There is a detachment to remember. The Javelins and admin staff were accomodated in the Speedbird at the airport. Poor old tanker air and ground crew were accomodated in Miniwallah, somewhere in the slums; apparently used so they could put a Brit. load of passengers in it if neccessary.
There were four lift shafts but only enough money for two lifts so two shafts were empty; no gates, no barriers, no lights, nothing.
The rooms had four taps on the basins. One pair had obviously gunged up so badly that they had renewed the entire water system; and had left the old one, complete wtih taps, there.
The kitchens were extensively fly-screened; so as to stop the flies getting into the dining room.

That was Exercse Shiksha at the end of October 1963, which was a token reinforcement of the Indian Air Force whilst they were having a noisy discussion with the Chinese about strips of land in the Himalayas. A joint effort with four 90 Sqn tankers assisting. This one at Bombay is taxiing to our dispersal after refuelling.

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/e...ps0fff945c.jpg

We were only there for a few days during which they lost a Javelin and some were then tanked onwards to Tengah.

Some of you may remember the the towing facilities for the ground power units.

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/e...psa95d8bc6.jpg

The medical officer who came with us to Butterworth is worth another thread.

Correction. They didn't lose the Javelin. The navigator saved the aircraft by ejecting when the pilot overpitched it.

Ulf Burberry, a charming man. Met his at Offutt in 1965 when he was one of the targeting officers I think. He introduced us to the French Air Force 'observers' as de Gaulle had just left the NATO military command but in practice nothing had really changed.

He then arrange for us to visit the underground ops bunker. It was pure Strangeglove unlike the WW2 bunker at High Wycombe.

Ulf Burberry created some unfortunate friction between the two tanker squadrons by attempting to reinvent the wheel. 214 had been devising techniques for the safe and effective operation of tanking which could not be changed at the drop of a bonedome. Some of his ideas were possibly way before their time. His deployment into Gan with al load of Javelins has something of a Black Buck feel to it. 214 did not get it too wrong as little has changed over the years

Not for the queasy, and not to be read at meal times and long
 

Quote:

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There is a detachment to remember.

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Fareastdriver,

Nice pics.


'THE' most memorable 214 tanking detachment during my time was the time that we sent one of our own Valiants non-stop to Singapore.

This was early 1960. We were to position tankers in Cyprus and Karachi to re-fuel the Singapore a/c. I was in the party that was in Karachi (Mauripur).

Before the trip we were briefed that we were the 1st RAF people to return to Pakistan since Independence, I have since learnt that this was probably untrue.

We were also warned of the dangers of 'disease' and we were to be given pills to alleviate 'stomach problems'. These pills were in 3 strengths and different colours. We were also to keep a 'score sheet' of our bowel movements! Complete with an indication of the consistency, as 'H' for hard, 'S' for soft and 'L' for liquid. We were also allocated a Medical Officer from SSQ and a Supply Officer from Stores.

We were paid in shiny new Pakistan Rupee notes, generously supplied at the official exchange rate, R13 = £1, by the Pakistan High Commission in London.

Transport Command kindly allocated a Hastings for us ground crew and our spares. This meant a 3 day journey, each way, with night stops in El Adem and Khormaksor and re-fueling stops at Luqa and Khartoum.

On arrival at Mauripur we were segregated. Officers were to have the privilege of being accommodated on base in the Officers Mess. We non-commissioned types, which included all of the technical ground crew and about 3 or 4 NCO aircrew, were to be accommodated in a hotel in Karachi. Guess who got the better deal?:ok:

Anyway, after a couple of days our score cards were getting well used. It quickly became apparent which of the pills were the strongest, but only by a day or so. Our M.O. was the hardest worked guy on the trip. He quickly organised a supply bottled soft drinks from the local Coke supplier, we were told to not even clean our teeth with the tap water. I, fortunately, had bought a bottle of duty free Gin in Aden. It was used for teeth cleaning!

In general life was simply ‘orrible.:eek:

When hailing a Taxi, before being asked for a destination, we were asked if we had any Sterling, Dollars or Travellers Cheques and offered R20 = £1 as a start. R22 was easily got with a little negotiation. As a consequence the shiny new notes didn’t get spent.

To re-fuel the return flight of the non-stop a/c from Singapore, our tanker air crews flew with towels as ‘nappies’! They had the benefit of wearing their oxygen masks while flying, but when they landed and the door was opened, they got out, but no ground crew entered for some considerable time.

The return trip by Hastings also had its moments.

When we landed at Khormaksor, the M.O. read out a list of 6 names. These guys, who had been working doing pre-flights that morning, were to be loaded onto the Ambulance that met the Hastings taken to SSQ and to be returned to the UK when fit.

We were also told that to rest the Hastings crew, who had done nothing for nearly 3 weeks! We were to stop over in Khormaksor for 2 nights. It was Whitsuntide Weekend, remember when that was a holiday?

The rest of nominally ‘fit’ guys were told to rest and drink plenty of liquid. To which of course some wag shouts out, ‘Does that include beer Doc?’ To which the M.O. replies in the affirmative. This advice I have being following ever since.:D

So we spent the spare day at the NAAFI Club at Steamer Point gently drinking and steaming.

The next morning we had an early take off and when we were in the air, the M.O. noticed that some faces that should have been in SSQ at Khormaksor. They had broken out of SSQ, via the windows!

Next bit really messy.:eek:

Our flight from Khormaksor to Khartoum was of course over Ethiopia and its mountains. Now remember the Hastings was un-pressurised so we flew below 10,000 ft. This meant that we bounced about the sky quite a lot. The Hastings also did not have flush toilets, but was fitted with the dreaded Elsan’s.

Note the combination.

Low flying a/c, rough air, Elsan toilets and a load of pax with dysentery!

For all of the wrong reasons, it was the most memorable flight that I have ever made. Getting off for the re-fuelling stop at Khartoum was a wonderful relief, getting back on, for the leg to El Adem, was not.

When we returned to Marham, 214 took over a complete ward in SSQ. Even though we were all unwell, I’m sure that you can imagine the antics created by having such a group from the same Sqdn, all in SSQ together. I’m sure the staff of SSQ was very pleased to see the back of us.

We had one last problem, the shiny new Pakistan Rupee's. The Pakistan High Commission didn't want them back. But The Accounts Dept at Marham had to give us Sterling at 13:1. We were never given Rupee's in advance ever again.

I’m pleased to say that this was my last flight in a Hastings, Transport Command always managed to supply a Britannia after that. Pure luxury, pressurized, hot food, smoking allowed and oh, FLUSH TOILETS!:ok::ok::ok:

Pontius and Zetec
Are you sure XD816 was the last Valiant flying ?
I went to some sort of 'end of the Valiant/543 Sqn' 'do' at Wyton in circa 1965 and I'm fairly sure the aircraft which arrived with a 'Wisley' civilian crew was XD818

NRU, I am merely quoting a book which had a photo of 816 to support that contention.

Flood Flow?
 

I seemed to recall that the Valiant had a system called Flood Flow. In the event of loss of cabin pressure flood flow would kick in to provide ram air to the cabin. I believe this was intended to increase cabin air pressure.

When Flood Flow kicked in a circular panel, about the size of a dustbin lid, was ejected from under the wing.

Once during a prod from a Javelin Flood Flow kicked in uncommanded firing the dustbin lid at the Javelin. I believe it was disabled thereafter.

Any Valiant drivers able to confirm or deny the story?

In the book 'Jet Bomber Pilot', Robby Robinson tells the story (page 105 onwards) of a successful attempt to fly a Valiant non-stop from the UK to Chicago taking along a stone for the new cathedral to be built there.

The idea was conceived by ACM 'Bing' Cross and the 90 squadron aircraft was flown by Ulf Burberry. Robinson in XD815 was to go to Goose Bay and then refuel Burberry in that area, both on the outward and return journeys. It seems the refueling on the outward sortie was completed in very difficult weather conditions ('40 degrees below zero) on the 16th January (1962 I think). He says the refueling wasn't carried out on the return leg.

It's quite an entertaining read of their time at Goose Bay.

New book Valiant Boys
 

Hi! Vulcan Boys comes out next May and I'd like to complete trilogy with Valiant Boys. Looking for personal accounts and photos of Valiant operations as a Bomber and as a Tanker. Please contact me or Anthony Wright as soon as possible Please spread the word around. Would like Engineers/crew chiefs input as well as aircrew.

VALIANT MAINTENANCE
 

I'm writing a book called Valiant Boys and am currently trying to contact Valiant Engineers, Crew Chiefs or Officers. If you can help please contact me. My email is on my page of my web site Aviation Books and Mystery Novels By Tony Blackman

Hi
Sad to report death of R I Howard who contributed much to threads concerning Valiant problems and thereby stimulated useful discussion about the properties of the alloys used in the construction of that aeroplane.
P Beech

Going back to the demise of the Valiant, I recall being involved in the scrappage programme at Marham in early to mid 1965. Once the decision was made most of the ground crew (of which I was one) where split up into teams to remove various items before the final "cutting up" process began. Two Valiants at a time were moved into the 4 hangers and each "team" was given a week to remove all classified equipment, non special to type components, explosive devices (eg ejector seats, explosive bolts etc) and anything else the MOD deemed worth saving. Also included in the stripping, was the removal of 2 complete forward fuselages/cockpits for sale to MGM for use in the filming of the James Bond film Thunderball and the removal and retention of 20 tailplanes, for use by RAe Farnborough for destructive testing. Engines were removed, taken to a compound near the airfield boundary (formerly 242Sqns Bloodhound site), lifted off the engine change trolleys and thrown onto the ground in Lots of 10 to be sold off to the scrap merchants. All luminous items around the cockpit and various external air intakes, vents and scoops, including pitot heads etc were either removed or chopped out, because of their supposed radio active contamination. Indeed our overalls had to be changed and disposed of as contaminated waste at the end of each week for the same reason.

One of my final tasks before posting was assisting in the preservation of XD818 and its towing onto the pre-prepared base outside the Ops Centre. Incidentally 818 was one of what I believe was one of four aircraft to have their wings reinforced with double skinning in various places, evidently to cope with increased stress during a particular operation. If you visit the RAF Cosford Museum and care to look at the underside of 818s mainplanes outboard of the landing gear you can see the multiple close rows of rivets attaching the extra skin(s). It may be that one of these "reinforced" Valiants was the last to fly sometime after the main fleet was grounded.

I believe that when 818 was moved from Marham to Cosford the wings were cut off. On reassembly the reinforcing plates were required to hold the wings on.

[QUOTE was given a week to remove all classified equipment[/QUOTE]

As a matter of interest, what equipment was still deemed classified in 1965 ?
Some of the kit eg Gee with the Universal Indicator, was World War 2 ish
There was no ECM, Window Dispensers and Orange Putter were hardly ‘state of the art’.

Hadn't been aware of Orange Putter before so I Googled it. My first attempt produced page after page of colourful golf clubs until I had the idea of adding the word "radar" to my search criteria!

Did you find out that it was the most spread out piece of kit in a Valiant?

The indicator was in front of the co-pilot, there was a junction box in front of the AEO, the waveform generator was up the Organ Loft and the Tx/Rx was the extremity of the fuselage.

Changing a Tx/Rx in the dark & cold of a winters night, was in modern parlance, a bit of a challenge.

It also wasn't a very good piece of kit.

I might have some course notes in the garage. I know I still have the Green Satin ones, and they were both on the same 'Fitter Bomber' course.

It was supposed to be for 'tail warning' of hostile a/c. On 214 in the IFR trials days, there were hopes of using it to detect incoming receivers, but in general it wasn't much help.

Edited to add.
The commonest reported problem was spurious 'Wings Range' audio warnings been fed into the intercom, so the OP was switched off!

I dunno if Red Steer was better, as that was after my time.

Pedantic mode on: It was in front of the captain between the elevator trim indicator lights and the port landing lamp switch.

Cos. my copy of Pilot's Notes says so.

:uhoh: I claim senility!

Being in the RH seat, you had the knob for the low level Radio Altimeter Mk V and the 'traffic lights' in front of you.

Correct; you're not that senile.

Racingrigger is right. 818 was a 49 Sqn machine before the test ban treaty and took part in operation Grapple. I know because it is my logbook. All Grapple aircraft had the reinforced wings because it was feared that the blast wave from a weapon might prove too much. It was certainly a bit bumpy but it felt no worse than moderate to strong turbulence. Are you sure that 818 went tanking? 49 went to Marham after our fun was curtailed and became main force. When the Valiants were grounded and 818 was to be parked outside the Ops block I was its inventory holder (a secondary duty for co-pilots). I collected all the paperwork, both flying and technical, bundled them up, had then vacuum wrapped and left on the nav's shelf. Never knew what happened to it but now I do. It's living with my Pucara!

Srill on Valiants but on a slight tangent. When I was an Operations Instructor with British Rail circa 1981 I came across a chap called "Doug", I can't recall his surname. I mentioned that my pop had been in the R.A.F. and that we had been at Gaydon 1963-67. Doug's eyes lit up. He explained that he had been a pilot and he was on the first squadron of Valiants that were formed at Gaydon before moving to....I can't remember where he said. He was quite a small chap of about five foot six or seven.
Anyone know him - assuming that his tale was true and he did seem genuine.

When I escorted my Whirlwind brethren through 818 in 1966 at Marham, Ops having given me the keys, it was finished in grey green camouflage so I presume it was a Main Force aeroplane.

When I saw it at Cosford it had just arrived and the fuselage was scarred along the wing mountings where there had been some serious metal cutting. IIRC the Valiant core was the bomb bay roof with large webs that enclosed the engines. The wings were tacked on to these with rivets.

It was obvious from the state of 818 that the webs had been cut so as to remove the wings, therefore the wing refits had to be botched.

If 818 'went tanking' it wasn't with 214, might have been the other lot.

Pontiflex, did you know "Ted" Dunne on Grapple?

It was never with the Honington Social Club.

Addendum. Some people work hard to make life difficult; others arrange it so that it is pleasant.

It was better, but not that much. Not sure about 18 Sqn but all the other Valiant squadrons had Orange Putter not Red Steer.
To test Orange Putter and Red Steer a special Very Cartridge was used containing ‘chaff’.You switched the equipment on then put the round in the Very Pistol and fired it and then looked for the radar return.
Re other equipment on the Valiant, did the bomber or tanker squadrons have Yellow Aster ?

Cartridge 1 1/2 in Radar Echo Warning - Thanks for stirring my brain cell.
:ok:

All interesting stuff. I'm working at Cosford on Sunday, so I'll go take a look.

After all these years I would just like to know why I was posted from Bruggen,24/12/1964 to 214 Sqdn.Honington .....that’s correct posted to a Squadron with duff Aircraft ...to join a heap of other bored ground crew scratching themselves waiting for the one Victor sortie per day courtesy of 55/57 Squadron.

I never heard of Yellow Aster. So most likely not fitted to Valiant's.

Sorry, I wasn't very clear about Red Steer.

I was aware that Red Steer wasn't fitted to Valiant's. But being a later development, I thought that it might have been a significant improvement.

To make a really good tail warning radar in those days, it would have needed AI Mk21 from the Lightning fitted to the tail of a bomber.

I also was on 214 at that date, but I was at Marham, so we wouldn't have met :oh:

Fareastdriver may know more.

Not just me then, as a bright eyed, bushy tailed, newly passed out JT, I was posted to Marham where the wreckers had already moved in. It didn't do much for morale, hanging about watching aircraft being torched up before being carted away.

Red Steer Mk1 (ARI 5919) was originally developed as AI20, in case there were problems with AI23. It only became a tail warner when 23 turned out OK. Great improvement over OP. The Mk2 (ARI5959) was even better.