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Hi guys

I have just popped over from Rotorheads.

I was asked a question today by my daughter who is in the Army as to why the Fleet Air Arm and RAF only use Commissioned pilots. I didn't know

Any help would be much appreciated :ok:

Thanks

TC

Excellent question...........:oh:

Because it is then easier to justify the necessary wage for retention.

No justifiable reason in this day and age. Some will say it is due to the need to grow the command structure through the stars, but that can still be achieved by talent spotting in the early stages. You don't need to be an officer to be a pilot, the AAC have proved that and they will stay longer in the job too.

I believe historically it was something to do with not trusting baldrick with nuclear weapons.

Thanks guys. Your help is much appreciated. :ok: I will link this forum to her and she can sort out what she wants.

TC

Historical/tradition/habit. No other valid reason in this day & age. I've no doubt there will be old school types who will disagree however... :bored:

(mini, commissioned)

I don't know when they were phased out but my father was a Sergeant Pilot in the RAF towards the end of WW2.

What VinRouge said. With the advent of the V-Force, only Officers were to drop buckets of sunshine.

Thats what I've been told for years. No reason not to have NCO pilots if it's true.

Ray

Worldwide, how many other air forces use NCO pilots? US Army use CWO so not strictly NCOs.

In Germany a few decades ago all pilots that were at the time NCOs did get a comission, nowadays only commissioned pilots.
Before that: Plenty of NCOs.

Tom

I was led to believe that it arose in the early days of the Great White Detergent. They could bomb the USSR into oblivion, but hadn't the range to get back. Seemed like a good idea to have all the aircrew POWs as officers. Could be wrong, but it's as good an idea as any, and I doubt there is any official record (at least none that are available).

I remember serving with the last Warrant Officer pilot to be forced to accept a commission in the 1960s.

Why not just ask the MoD? And then tell us the answer.

The RAF's last NCO pilot was W/O "Taff" Walker, at RAF Odiham, still flying on the Wessex OCU until about 1980.

I vaguely recall that the RAF made a faux pas, by earlier publicising another pilot to be the last NCO retiree, while in fact Taff was still flying as an instructor.

I would be genuinely interested to hear how much experience the average NCO has starting Pilot's Course - and thus how much he/ she has cost prior to even seeing an aeroplane, and how many years on average the RN/RAF get from its pilots from the start of JEFTS groundschool compared to the AAC. Does anyone know?

I started my APC as a Lance Corporal having spent four years as an Aircrewman (Observer), prior to which I'd had four years as a Groundcrewman. On graduating I received a promotion to Corporal, and about two years later achieved the dizzy heights of Sergeant and Aircraft Commander, having been TQ'd and Lynx Converted on the way.

Cheap as chips, and achieved the aim.

My father was a Master Pilot and actively flying aeroplanes such as Hunters in 2TAF and finally on the NBS at Lyndholme until retiring from the R.A.F. in 1968. His only ground tour was on 106SM squadron, Bardney.
He then went on to fly with S.O.A.F. until about 1972 and I used to meet up with him in Masirah when we passed through on the Nimrod with 203sqn. He's still alive today.

Shoot me down in flames, but...... I have a couple of theories without having the actual facts at my fingertips.

All regular RAF pilots used to be officers before WW2 (unless training when they were officer cadets), but the rapid expansion of the RAF combined with the attrition rate of pilots during the war meant that NCOs were cheaper and quicker to produce. Once WW2 over there was an experiment with new RAF aircrew ranks for NCOs but this was not successful and ranks reverted - it is possible that the demise of the NCO pilot was around the time that this happened (1950).

I believe that during WW2, nations such as RAAF trained their bomber pilots while NCOs, but then gave them a commission before starting Ops tour.

As an afterthought, it is also possible that many NCO pilots were originally RAF VR and not regular pilots, but I stand to be corrected.

This was one of the issues in the NAO report into Battlefield helicopters in 2004. They said:

Quote:

Almost two-thirds of the Army's aircrew are non-commissioned officers, whereas the Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force use only officer pilots and navigators/observers. Historically, the perceived complexity of Royal Navy and Royal Air Force helicopters has supported this position. However, Army noncommissionedofficers are now flying the complex Apache Mk1. In addition, other forces, for example in the United States, use non-commissioned officers to fly Apache, and also aircraft such as the Chinook, which are exclusively flown by officers in the United Kingdom. The bringing together of helicopters into one command throws these issues into sharp relief. Separately, in its Report on the Apache,1 the Committee of Public Accounts recommended that the Department examine the possibility of using non-commissioned officers as aircrew across all three Services.

Quote:

Aircrew ranks should be reviewed

3.28 The Army Air Corps employs a mix of noncommissioned and officer pilots whereas the RoyalNavy and Royal Air Force use only officer pilots. With the formation of the Joint Helicopter Command and the introduction into the Army Air Corps of increasinglycomplex and powerful helicopters, this position is becoming increasingly anachronistic.

3.29 The Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force have not always excluded non-officer pilots. The policy was introduced in the 1950s when the two Services assumed responsibility for delivering nuclear weaponry, although only fixed-wing aircraft and anti-submarine helicopters actually carried such weapons. It was assumed that only an officer would have the requisite decision-making abilities and authority to drop nuclear munitions. The phasing out of the Royal Navy's nuclear depth charges and the Royal Air Force's nuclear bombs has, however, removed this rationale for excluding other ranks from becoming pilots.

3.30 The distinction in aircrew ranks between the Services has also partly been justified on the grounds that the helicopters of the Army Air Corps have been less complex to fly. This argument, however, does not appear to have the same strength with the introduction into service of the Apache Mk1, which is a highly complex helicopter. The ratio between non-commissioned and commissioned officers in an Apache regiment will be 62:38.

3.31 In addition, it is difficult to see why a non commissioned officer could not fly a larger support aircraft, such as the Chinook. Indeed, the Joint Helicopter Command has experimented with this in the "Templar" exchange programme where a senior non-commissioned officer from the Army Air Corps was seconded to a squadron flying Chinooks. Moreover, Puma and CH-53 support helicopters are piloted by non-commissioned officers in France and Germany, respectively.

3.32 The question of the variation of front-line aircrew ranks was last addressed by the Department in 1996. The Department concluded that the status quo should remain. Moreover, it concluded that no significant cost savings would arise from using non-commissioned officer pilots because of the differences in individual Service training costs, rates of pay, and time spent in the various ranks. It also noted that there was little scope to harmonise aircrew ranks because the Services operated their helicopters differently. However, the work that informed the establishment of the Joint Helicopter Command suggested that the issue should be reexamined once the Command had "bedded in".

Furthermore, in considering the introduction into service of the Apache, the Committee of Public Accounts has recommended that the Department should examine the possibility of using non-commissioned officers as aircrew across all three Services.

Ministry of Defence - Battlefield Helicopters - National Audit Office

There is also the question of who the future leaders are going to be. At least some of them probably need to have been at the sharp end.

Many NCO Pilots/Aircrew in WW2 were drawn from the ranks of ex-Halton Apprentices. Many were, in due course, commissioned; many did not survive........

HB

The R.A.F. re-introduced N.C.O. pilots (and navs) in the early 60's. There were 4 sergeant pilots on the same course as I was at 5 F.T.S. Oakington (Varsities) at the beginning of '64, one of whom was then on the same Shack course as me. To my knowledge 2 of them were still N.C.O.s as late as '68. I believe they were all commisioned shortly afterwards.
I think the " sunshine " issue had something to do with it, as Coastal Command's sunshine was supplied by the septics.

Very interesting.

Can someone in the know post if the ratio (as described above) is 68 : 32 in both front and back seats of an AH?

Am I right that the front seater is what I would think of as 'Aircraft Captain'?

Also, would a sideways 'NCO entrant' scheme work or are the formative years prior to Pilot's Course actually critical?

Quote:

...or are the formative years prior to Pilot's Course actually critical?

From the Army's perspective I'd suggest 'highly-desirable' rather than critical. By the time a prospective applicant has reached the minimum rank required, he/she will have hopefully achieved an appreciation of the way the Army operates, and will usually bring a useful skillset with them, even if they've served in a support rather than a teeth role.

Surely the actual reason is that the average pongo officer is such a dimwitted inbred that he requires a competent NCO to complete any task more demanding than sitting on a horse? Flying an aircraft would be beyond the skill set of most of them, so those more intelligent are chosen....

Quote:

'Somewhere outside Saffron Walden there's an uncle who is seven feet tall with no chin and an Adam's apple that makes him look as if he's constantly trying to swallow a ballcock.'

Yup, pretty well sums up the pedigree of the average Woopert of the Wedgiment.....

(And no, of course I'm not being serious! Not that serious, I should add.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by orca (Post 7492103)

Very interesting.

Can someone in the know post if the ratio (as described above) is 68 : 32 in both front and back seats of an AH?

I don't know the answer, but those figures are 8 years old (at least) so may not take into account operational experience of the AH.

There are those that have the skills required of aircrew, and those that have the skills required of officers. Given the excessive number of utter throbbers in the RAF aircrew officer corps, the two appear to have been confused. It must be considerably cheaper to put a recruit through officer training than aircrew training, so perhaps it's a numbers game, with inevitable results - often not manifested until they acquire higher rank.

What's in a title?

I joined the Army Air Corps in 1975 as an Airtrooper, (private soldier) bowser driver, after 3 yrs I became a Corporal Observer/Airgunner, (co-pilot in effect, front left seat, dual controls etc), 3 yrs after that I completed a 12 month pilots course, and quailfied as a Sergeant pilot.
6 years later I left the Army Air Corps, because of the habit of making officers senior pilots and flight commanders, not on abillity or experiance, but purely on the basis "rank".

When I subsequently started flying with a civil helicopter company, I started as a 2nd officer, then 1st officer, senior 1st officer, Captain. My point is, dispite the use in the civil aviation world of the word "officer", is that all aviators, in all services, should be in the job they are in, because of abillity, not because of perceived "rank".

So why not have all aviators in the milliary use the civil system;)