Naval Pilots
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 1999
Posts: 320
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From: Cornwall
Naval Pilots
Hi guys
I have just popped over from Rotorheads.
I was asked a question today by my daughter who is in the Army as to why the Fleet Air Arm and RAF only use Commissioned pilots. I didn't know
Any help would be much appreciated
Thanks
TC
I have just popped over from Rotorheads.
I was asked a question today by my daughter who is in the Army as to why the Fleet Air Arm and RAF only use Commissioned pilots. I didn't know
Any help would be much appreciated
Thanks
TC
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 21
Likes: 1
From: Somerset
No justifiable reason in this day and age. Some will say it is due to the need to grow the command structure through the stars, but that can still be achieved by talent spotting in the early stages. You don't need to be an officer to be a pilot, the AAC have proved that and they will stay longer in the job too.
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 469
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From: oxford
There are very good answers on here:
When did the RAF ensure that all pilots were officer rank? [Archive] - E-Goat :: The Totally Unofficial Royal Air Force Rumour Network forums
When did the RAF ensure that all pilots were officer rank? [Archive] - E-Goat :: The Totally Unofficial Royal Air Force Rumour Network forums
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
Joined: Jan 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 4,331
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From: England
I was led to believe that it arose in the early days of the Great White Detergent. They could bomb the USSR into oblivion, but hadn't the range to get back. Seemed like a good idea to have all the aircrew POWs as officers. Could be wrong, but it's as good an idea as any, and I doubt there is any official record (at least none that are available).
Avoid imitations
Joined: Nov 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
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From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
The RAF's last NCO pilot was W/O "Taff" Walker, at RAF Odiham, still flying on the Wessex OCU until about 1980.
I vaguely recall that the RAF made a faux pas, by earlier publicising another pilot to be the last NCO retiree, while in fact Taff was still flying as an instructor.
I vaguely recall that the RAF made a faux pas, by earlier publicising another pilot to be the last NCO retiree, while in fact Taff was still flying as an instructor.
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,125
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From: UK
I would be genuinely interested to hear how much experience the average NCO has starting Pilot's Course - and thus how much he/ she has cost prior to even seeing an aeroplane, and how many years on average the RN/RAF get from its pilots from the start of JEFTS groundschool compared to the AAC. Does anyone know?
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,165
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From: Kammbronn
I started my APC as a Lance Corporal having spent four years as an Aircrewman (Observer), prior to which I'd had four years as a Groundcrewman. On graduating I received a promotion to Corporal, and about two years later achieved the dizzy heights of Sergeant and Aircraft Commander, having been TQ'd and Lynx Converted on the way.
Cheap as chips, and achieved the aim.
Cheap as chips, and achieved the aim.
Last edited by diginagain; 29th October 2012 at 09:57.
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 305
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From: Marlow
My father was a Master Pilot and actively flying aeroplanes such as Hunters in 2TAF and finally on the NBS at Lyndholme until retiring from the R.A.F. in 1968. His only ground tour was on 106SM squadron, Bardney.
He then went on to fly with S.O.A.F. until about 1972 and I used to meet up with him in Masirah when we passed through on the Nimrod with 203sqn. He's still alive today.
He then went on to fly with S.O.A.F. until about 1972 and I used to meet up with him in Masirah when we passed through on the Nimrod with 203sqn. He's still alive today.
Joined: Sep 2006
Aviation Qualifications: Military
Posts: 6,024
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From: Somewhere flat
Shoot me down in flames, but...... I have a couple of theories without having the actual facts at my fingertips.
All regular RAF pilots used to be officers before WW2 (unless training when they were officer cadets), but the rapid expansion of the RAF combined with the attrition rate of pilots during the war meant that NCOs were cheaper and quicker to produce. Once WW2 over there was an experiment with new RAF aircrew ranks for NCOs but this was not successful and ranks reverted - it is possible that the demise of the NCO pilot was around the time that this happened (1950).
I believe that during WW2, nations such as RAAF trained their bomber pilots while NCOs, but then gave them a commission before starting Ops tour.
As an afterthought, it is also possible that many NCO pilots were originally RAF VR and not regular pilots, but I stand to be corrected.
All regular RAF pilots used to be officers before WW2 (unless training when they were officer cadets), but the rapid expansion of the RAF combined with the attrition rate of pilots during the war meant that NCOs were cheaper and quicker to produce. Once WW2 over there was an experiment with new RAF aircrew ranks for NCOs but this was not successful and ranks reverted - it is possible that the demise of the NCO pilot was around the time that this happened (1950).
I believe that during WW2, nations such as RAAF trained their bomber pilots while NCOs, but then gave them a commission before starting Ops tour.
As an afterthought, it is also possible that many NCO pilots were originally RAF VR and not regular pilots, but I stand to be corrected.
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 484
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From: at the end of the bar
This was one of the issues in the NAO report into Battlefield helicopters in 2004. They said:
Ministry of Defence - Battlefield Helicopters - National Audit Office
Almost two-thirds of the Army's aircrew are non-commissioned officers, whereas the Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force use only officer pilots and navigators/observers. Historically, the perceived complexity of Royal Navy and Royal Air Force helicopters has supported this position. However, Army noncommissionedofficers are now flying the complex Apache Mk1. In addition, other forces, for example in the United States, use non-commissioned officers to fly Apache, and also aircraft such as the Chinook, which are exclusively flown by officers in the United Kingdom. The bringing together of helicopters into one command throws these issues into sharp relief. Separately, in its Report on the Apache,1 the Committee of Public Accounts recommended that the Department examine the possibility of using non-commissioned officers as aircrew across all three Services.
Aircrew ranks should be reviewed
3.28 The Army Air Corps employs a mix of noncommissioned and officer pilots whereas the RoyalNavy and Royal Air Force use only officer pilots. With the formation of the Joint Helicopter Command and the introduction into the Army Air Corps of increasinglycomplex and powerful helicopters, this position is becoming increasingly anachronistic.
3.29 The Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force have not always excluded non-officer pilots. The policy was introduced in the 1950s when the two Services assumed responsibility for delivering nuclear weaponry, although only fixed-wing aircraft and anti-submarine helicopters actually carried such weapons. It was assumed that only an officer would have the requisite decision-making abilities and authority to drop nuclear munitions. The phasing out of the Royal Navy's nuclear depth charges and the Royal Air Force's nuclear bombs has, however, removed this rationale for excluding other ranks from becoming pilots.
3.30 The distinction in aircrew ranks between the Services has also partly been justified on the grounds that the helicopters of the Army Air Corps have been less complex to fly. This argument, however, does not appear to have the same strength with the introduction into service of the Apache Mk1, which is a highly complex helicopter. The ratio between non-commissioned and commissioned officers in an Apache regiment will be 62:38.
3.31 In addition, it is difficult to see why a non commissioned officer could not fly a larger support aircraft, such as the Chinook. Indeed, the Joint Helicopter Command has experimented with this in the "Templar" exchange programme where a senior non-commissioned officer from the Army Air Corps was seconded to a squadron flying Chinooks. Moreover, Puma and CH-53 support helicopters are piloted by non-commissioned officers in France and Germany, respectively.
3.32 The question of the variation of front-line aircrew ranks was last addressed by the Department in 1996. The Department concluded that the status quo should remain. Moreover, it concluded that no significant cost savings would arise from using non-commissioned officer pilots because of the differences in individual Service training costs, rates of pay, and time spent in the various ranks. It also noted that there was little scope to harmonise aircrew ranks because the Services operated their helicopters differently. However, the work that informed the establishment of the Joint Helicopter Command suggested that the issue should be reexamined once the Command had "bedded in".
Furthermore, in considering the introduction into service of the Apache, the Committee of Public Accounts has recommended that the Department should examine the possibility of using non-commissioned officers as aircrew across all three Services.
3.28 The Army Air Corps employs a mix of noncommissioned and officer pilots whereas the RoyalNavy and Royal Air Force use only officer pilots. With the formation of the Joint Helicopter Command and the introduction into the Army Air Corps of increasinglycomplex and powerful helicopters, this position is becoming increasingly anachronistic.
3.29 The Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force have not always excluded non-officer pilots. The policy was introduced in the 1950s when the two Services assumed responsibility for delivering nuclear weaponry, although only fixed-wing aircraft and anti-submarine helicopters actually carried such weapons. It was assumed that only an officer would have the requisite decision-making abilities and authority to drop nuclear munitions. The phasing out of the Royal Navy's nuclear depth charges and the Royal Air Force's nuclear bombs has, however, removed this rationale for excluding other ranks from becoming pilots.
3.30 The distinction in aircrew ranks between the Services has also partly been justified on the grounds that the helicopters of the Army Air Corps have been less complex to fly. This argument, however, does not appear to have the same strength with the introduction into service of the Apache Mk1, which is a highly complex helicopter. The ratio between non-commissioned and commissioned officers in an Apache regiment will be 62:38.
3.31 In addition, it is difficult to see why a non commissioned officer could not fly a larger support aircraft, such as the Chinook. Indeed, the Joint Helicopter Command has experimented with this in the "Templar" exchange programme where a senior non-commissioned officer from the Army Air Corps was seconded to a squadron flying Chinooks. Moreover, Puma and CH-53 support helicopters are piloted by non-commissioned officers in France and Germany, respectively.
3.32 The question of the variation of front-line aircrew ranks was last addressed by the Department in 1996. The Department concluded that the status quo should remain. Moreover, it concluded that no significant cost savings would arise from using non-commissioned officer pilots because of the differences in individual Service training costs, rates of pay, and time spent in the various ranks. It also noted that there was little scope to harmonise aircrew ranks because the Services operated their helicopters differently. However, the work that informed the establishment of the Joint Helicopter Command suggested that the issue should be reexamined once the Command had "bedded in".
Furthermore, in considering the introduction into service of the Apache, the Committee of Public Accounts has recommended that the Department should examine the possibility of using non-commissioned officers as aircrew across all three Services.
Last edited by XV277; 29th October 2012 at 11:12.