No more Vulcan from next year
 

Well, it was good while it lasted.

I'd rather see one Vulcan than nine poxy hawks.

Apparently there's a headstone with that written on it looking for a new home...

As a taxpayer I'm making my views felt.

That you don't like 'em doesn't bother me.

Anyhoo, I'm sure there will be another 'reds' subject you can fart on about in a few months time.

Not wishing to join the bun fight, but....

It would be nice if there was money available to fly the older aircraft, at public expence. The Red's and the BBMF are both great, but there's an awfull lot of hardware gone between the two...

Indeed, Michelin Stars.

Not that you will ever get to find out.

They do write some ****e, don't they.

I vividly recall, as a 14 year old schoolboy, something to do with an 8000 mile bombing mission in the South Atlantic. Nothing at all to do with "Bombs, HC".

In 1993, it may have been the only one left in the RAF, and it displayed at my squadron's disbandment at BZZ. Most impressive. Certainly not "the only one left" of the fleet though.

Only one left? I don't think so.

SGC

Do you expect anything more from the BBC ?

The person writing the story probably wasn't even
born in 1982 !

I totally agree with WW. Not knocking the "Reds" at all, just the utterly boring aircraft they have to fly (For advertising "BAE Systems" purposes)!

I would much rather See, hear and FEEL one Vulcan display!

Unfortunately some of you are SO brainwashed and immune to sarcasym.......but perhaps thats a good thing for the Military to be. :p


Now put them in nine Twyfooms and it would be a MUCH harder choice. One can but dream..........:ok:

So what do you choose to believe?

On the one hand, "it will never fly again" stories have become a standard part of XH558 winter fundraising activities in recent years.

On the other, this does have a slightly different tone to past messages, so it may be more real: and it does come on the heels of the mangling of two engines at Finningley, which inevitably raised doubts about the future.

On the third (did they say it was only metallurgists who had three hands?) PPRuNe is the place to go if you want to find negative views about XH558: from, perhaps, what you might expect to be the best informed community on the subject anywhere.

So what do you choose to believe?

I've now seen XH558 do her stuff half a dozen times since 2008, at East Fortune and Leuchars. Four memories stick with me.

One is that unique engine tone as the power is increased. A throwback to witnessing a mass Vulcan takeoff at a Finningley Airshow in (I think) the very early 70s. The second was a roll off the top of a takeoff at Leuchars in 2009.

The third was at the press day at Leuchars in, I think, 2008: the look on the face of a Dutch F16 pilot as he saw a shape he'd never seen flying before.

And the fourth was at this year's perfect Leuchars Air Show, with a nearly three year old grandson who still tells me that the "Vulcan was very loud"; only he makes it sound like "falcon".

I suppose, at least, that young Alistair will always remember that he did see the Vulcan flying when he was small.

I think it should come over here to the US where there is more of a "can do" attitude, rather than the "its not going to be flyable anymore".
Putting on hard hat for the expected US-bashing.
:E
f

Knowing first hand what it took to keep them flying in the sixties, when we had full manufacturer spares support and the defence budget to support us, I think they've done a fantastic job to keep 558 in flying condition for six years. But all good things must come to an end, and she's had her day. Twice.

Perhaps now 558 will stop sucking in all the "Vulcan money" and something may be available for proper historic Vulcans to be preserved, such as XM607 that is doing a very good impression of a ten-year-old Triumph Dolomite outside at Waddington.

Come on guys. Stop knocking the Reds on this thread.
Why can't you just reminisce about the fine Vulcan, and leave the Reds out of it!
The financial link is tenuous in the extreme. The funding is from completely different sources. Or do you, WW, think it comes from one big pot?? Well done you.
I'm still in the mob, and feel the good the Reds do outweigh the negativity you suggest. Why use this as another reason to knock the "poxy Hawks". Nice. Again, well done you.

Go on. Why not put on some great photos of the Vulcan, ones that we can all enjoy. You know it makes sense.

Come on guys - they're only looking for a couple of hundred thousand

I reckon they are fishing for a one-off big donation by a "patriotic millionaire" (ie someone in need of a knighthood) which saves them handling thousands of £5 donations

TBH they've done a great job but every year its the same "it'll never fly again" story - and yet she still flies

Oh come on guys VTTS have been flagging the main spar issue up for years so this news shouldn't come as a surprise. Posters on Pprune have also commented about the displays and the perception that they've been using up the fatigue life at a fast pace. There is also a link on BBC BBC News - Vulcan bomber XH558 to be grounded saying that they will run out of usable spare engines by 2014. Lastly VTTS have said that they have been exploring ways of funding a permanent ground display/museum using XH558 as a centrepiece when the time comes for it to be grounded.

Has anyone yet seen any report concerning the completely avoidable destruction of 2 airworthy and quite priceless Olympus engines earlier this year?

I didn't understand the bit about wing modifications unless they mean an entirely new Mod to reinforce the wings as opposed to a re-spar or repair.

The engines would appear to be the stopper though. Their mtbf was very low in the 60s and compared with a modern fan they are the equivalent of the Bleriot. If it could be fixed for £200k, so be it.

To say they have run out of engines, how many installed power plants are there in museums around the world?

The Panton brothers discovered that their merlins were perfectly serviceable, so maybe they could find some 201s n museums and do a swappsey.

BEagle,

With respect, I don't see what purpose banging that particular drum will serve right now.

I am no apologist for TVOC and their dubious practices, however, what occurred, occurred a long time ago and I'm sure it's obvious to all exactly what happened, the reasons it happened and what the consequences of it happening are. We're quite clearly seeing the consequences of it now, and I'm sure it's come as no surprise to anyone with half a clue within the industry. Nothing now, not even a completely unnecessary and non-mandated 'report' will help matters, or change anything, other than to quench your obvious thirst for a blame figure.

For all their many and varied wrongs, I think it admirable that they've made this wise announcement nice and early and ahead of the round of winter fundraising. It's a terrible shame, but all good things must come to an end, and as cheesy as it sounds, at least we've all had the chance to see 558 back in the air for the last 5 years. Hopefully now, we can all look forward to the coming season and enjoy watching something that this time, really will be for the final time.


Flipflopman

PN, there might be other engines, but they won't have the necessary supporting paperwork to enable them to be used in an aeroplane under CAA regulation.

199, if VTS are to encourage people to stump up the cash, they need to give absolute assurance that whatever caused the loss of those priceless engines cannot happen again.

• How was it caused?
• What measures have been put in place to ensure that there won't be a repetiton?

Pontious,

Unfortunately, that's exactly what they mean. The wing spar mods have never been carried out before, never been properly drawn up, and were simply a paperwork and feasibility exercise based on the fatigue airframe data. This would be a world first and so would have carried its own inherent risks and unknowns, along with the hefty cost of drawing up and implementing brand new modifications.

As goes the engines, it's not simply a case of running out of their own stock of 201's, but a certification issue with Rolls Royce and the CAA. Obviously, in order to be granted a permit in the first instance, TVOC needed the full support of all of the major OEMs and manufacturers. Rolls were happy to certify 7 of the 8 'zero timed' engines that TVOC had in stock, but refused to certify the eighth due to issues over preservation. They absolutely refused to enter into discussion about certifying 'unknown' and unpreserved engines installed 'on wing' on other aircraft.

Rolls Royce live and die on their reputation, and should 558 leave a smoking crater due to the failure of a Rolls Royce engine, 1950's vintage or otherwise, then they could likely kiss goodbye to swathes of orders of their very lifeblood.

Apologies if I am stating the obvious.


Flipflopman

BEagle,

You may be surprised how much I actually agree with your sentiments, however, in reality, a macabre form of punishment has already been meted out in the fact that, notwithstanding a further incident, the aircraft will only be operated for a further year before being grounded permanently.

In answer to your points, the cause was that a bandolier of unaccounted for and unregistered Silica bags, which were serving no actual purpose other than as a potential FOD hazard, were missed or neglected by a member of ground crew, erroneously signed for and were ingested by an engine causing catastrophic failure of that engine, shortly followed by inestion of debris and subsequent failure of the paired engine...

...but I'm quite sure you were already fully aware of that.

As goes the second point, well, obviously I can't really expand on that, however, one would hope that lessons have been learned from this incident, and the silica has been left where it rightfully belongs, in long term stored engine bags, along with the correct paperwork, dessicant indicators, ovens, and controlled conditions.... and new shoes.


Flipflopman

No it didn't flipflop.

No. Very telling BEagle.

I agree with others elsewhere. Time to call it a day, savour the memories, let some of those who have enjoyed a very good living out of 558 over the past few years reflect, thank those that didn't, and move on. Finally.

FFM, thank you.

In the grand scheme of things, cuefaye, it's not really breaking news is it. I'm fully aware of exactly when it happened, my point was simply that there has been enough water under the bridge for the furore to have died down and for things to be looked at objectively.

Apologies if I didn't make that more clear.


Flipflopman

With regards to the silica bag/engine incident, I don't think there have ever been any public reports into it, however in the latest 'Consolidated Report and Accounts' document it states; and I quote

much as I like to see it flying, to my way of thinking the silica incident suggests a management and maintenance mindset which indicates the sooner the aircraft is grounded, the safer we all will be.

the South African Lightning report clearly indicates the potential issues with civilians trying to keep old military aircraft airborne. I don't suggest the Vulcan operators are cast in the same mould as those incompetents, but the fact remains that trying to keep any complex aircraft flying without the proper resources is an accident waiting to happen.

the silica should be taken as a warning. The aircraft should be grounded, now.

We can't afford the fly the aircraft in current service let alone fund the Vulcan. BBMF have more servicable Spitfires than we do some aircraft fleets in service.

For me the Vulcan is a 'draw', the reds are not.

The reds are indeed fine exponents of aerobatic flying; that does not interest me in the slightest.

I prefer historic aircraft, particularly 'heavy metal', of which the Vulcan is Britain's most impressive example.

The taxpayer comment was aimed at another post that has been 'disappeared', in finest S. American form.

In any case money is money, at least I have a choice in whether to contribute to the Vulcan fund, as a taxpayer I have no choice as to what the MoD does with it.

So, please take you sarcastic little comments and shove them... Yours is an attitude that makes me glad to leave the job, and those of your ilk, in my past.

Well said WW totally agree.

Perhaps if the didnt pay Dr Pleming in excess of £80,000 a year and I beleive the pilots a similar amount (happy to be corrected on that one) they might have more money to fund the aircraft mods etc. It will be a sad loss from the skys.

WW in one, went to Cosford for first time in years and left before the Reds, same show different year, they're like comfort food, always there, looks good, but tends to be bland... Don't get me wrong, it's all very skilful but it is just so bland to watch... The Vulcan lets you know it's there in both sight and sound.....

Does look like the gravy train is pulling into the station though... Whhooooo whooooo...



.

Ground it and get over it!

I'm sure you were a real loss to the Service WW, we thank you for leaving. Now go and change your bag

Hmmmm. Watching the Reds is like buying a Seal album, dress it up however you want, but it will just be the same songs regurgitated over and over again.

I will be sad to see it go, but pleased that we won't have to listen to the drivel that comes from TVOC year-in and year-out.

FFM199 - the reason why the likes of BEagle and myself keep banging the drum about the engine incident is because it has shown and proven what a poor set up this whole thing is. Not only that, but in my opinion the people who have donated millions of pounds to the project have a right to be given a public apology for the negligence by some (one) that caused the loss of two irreplaceable engines. Has there been any apology whatsoever?

Indeed, the lack of public apology displays yet further arrogance on the part of TVOC management, who obviously don't feel the need to give such an apology, and continue to treat their sponsors as if they were ignorant fools. They are not fools and shame on TVOC for treating them as such.

Of course, as has been suggested, this announcement might just be another ploy to get another significant donation for the project and line Dr Pleming's pockets for another year eh?? What do you think?

As for the Reds?? Just leave them alone for goodness sake.

Winco

I have seen both the Vulcan and the Reds fly, the Reds on numerous occasions,
albeit quite a few years ago now.

As much as the Vulcan inspires awe, the Reds are the public face of the RAF
but the major point I want to make it even though the Reds might be "Hmmmm. Watching the Reds is like buying a Seal album, dress it up however you want, but it will just be the same songs regurgitated over and over again." as Nutloose put it, he is looking at it from a perspective of one person seeing it multiple times.

The general public on the other hand might only see it very few years,
either at a sea side performance like Bournemouth or if they do a FAMILY
trip to something like Farnborough. This is repeated every few years as kids grow up and again as they have families themselves.

And then on top of that, you have the next generation who grow up who
haven't seen it before so to them at a young age it is a "wow" moment
and the point in time when seeds are planted that they want to become
a Fast jet pilot.

The last two are a never ending regeneration of new spectators.

I think we forget that.

In addition, compared to the 70's and 80's, the general public are a lot more
exposed to these type of events and extreme sports now than back then so to some extent it might have lost some of it's Wow factor.


Edit
I only used Nutloose's post as it was the most succinct and
convenient to quote.
.

What we need is the funding generation used to keep the Vulcan on the circuit to be used to keep a VC10 on the go... :ok:




Ohh and I do not own a Seal album.... Honestly.