Historical RAF Uniform Question
 

Starter for ten - Could anyone please tell me when Wedgwood Blue shirts were first introduced? Was it at the same time as the Hairy Marys went out (72/73)? And was the shirt that preceded it (for airming, not zobbits) the blue/grey with separate collar?

Bonus question - when did Staybrite cap badges first appear? My guess is around 1960. Did the rest of the bling change over from brass at the same time (thinking of medics' collar caduceus in particular)?

Thanking you!

In the late '60s a pale blue (with tones of green) shirt was introduced and a short sleeve version could be bought at own expense.

The current dark blue shirt came in a little later than 72 IIRC, nearer 74.

I seem to remember the dark blue shirt (v. similar to the fish head shirt) coming in a bit later than that, around 78 perhaps? I don't remember seeing them around in the very early stages of my "career" (joined Jan 76)

Depending on neck size some of my entry got collar attached, others got detached; this was June 71. All in the entry 6 weeks earlier were issued collar detached.

Were these collar detached shirts similar in colour to the Wedgwood ones?

Hard to desribe the colour. They were not Wedgewood; the material seemed to have blue and white threads crossing each other to give a light blue. The collars that were bought were of a lighter colour but they would hold their shape better than issue ones.

Ah, that's what I wanted to know, thanks! I'm told that the correct term for that sort of cloth is "end on end weave". It would seem that they were very similar to officers' pattern shirts from the 1940s in that case...

Any idea when the ones you describe first came in to use?

There are several groups that specialise in the minutea of WW2 and post-war RAF uniforms and they may be in a better position to say what is "correct" for any particular period, given the original wearers of such are getting fewer as time passes. Try

ww2rafgroup.org and

ww2rafgroup.org.downloadsguidance1.html

in particular for an overview. Having met a few members at various events I found them to be approachable and interested in such questions.

Ripline

Demobbed in May71. Never heard of Wedgewood Blue shirts so they definitely appeared after that date. Only ever had separate collar arrangement ie three shirts and six collars. (and one set of collar studs) airming for the use off.

I was demobbed in April 1973. Still using standard shirt with separate collar and those dreadful collar studs. About 2 years before demob we were allowed to buy our own collar-attached shirt but it had to be of a particular colour & pattern.
I handed in my greatcoat when I was demobbed - it was issued to me in Boy's service in 1960 when I was 6ft 3ins and 11 stone; when I was demobbed I was the same height but had added a further 5 stones!

I went through Swinderby early 75 and ISTR having one shirt of the 'blue and white threads' variety, but with attached collar, which was the 'No1 shirt' and several 'No 2 shirts' in plain wedgewood blue. I was also issued a 'Hairy Mary' and 'wooly pully' though the HM was replaced with a 'Thunderbird Suit' soon after arrival at my first proper unit.

Of course this was some time ago so the memory is not what it was!

The real 'sharp' operators had that end-on weave collar in PLASTIC. The appeared to be heavily starched but were allegedly more comfortable and could be cleaned with a damp cloth.

Vortex, you are of my era (Swinderby '75). I concur with your memory. 1 x Blue/Gray for Best, 4 x Wedgewood for day to day.

Also the very dark blue workshirts (issued as a one-off) + 2 x Blue/Gray coveralls issued as 'workwear' for manky jobs. About '78ish?

As an aside, at Swinderby, I was duty 'gash shag' one day and detailed to 'hump and dump' in Clothing Stores. I was told to dispose of a large black poly sack. Having a peek inside, I discovered, all screwed up, 23 almost brand new Wedgewood blue shirts all my size. I disposed of them into my kitbag.

I never ran short of a clean shirt again.

If it helps, our ATC Sqn cadets were getting issued serge BD, end-on-end weave shirts with collars, detached in 74, switching to SD trousers, dark-blue shirts & JHW in 77.

Joined in 1966, collar detached shirts were issue of the day. As an ex spacey I had acquired some Van Heusen collars, much more comfortable than those issued, and never ever to be entrusted to the service laundry system. During the early 60s as a cadet I had been issued with dark grey collar detached shirts that resembled sail cloth.

It was collar-detached for me when I joined in Jan 71. I was thrown off a pre-AOC's inspection parade in 1972 for wearing a brand-new collar with a well-worn shirt that was probably two shades lighter. :O
Seem to remember collar-attached shirts being available shortly afterwards. Oh, and having a pull-on, half-buttoned shirt from somewhere. The tail was nearly as long as a WRAF skirt!
I always liked the Hairy Mary No2 - at least it looked like a proper traditional uniform, as did the belted No1.
The raincoats were dreadful shapeless garments, as were the 'new' grey Velcro'd overalls (with blue pocket flaps, epaulettes and collars) that defied conforming to conventional body contours after a couple of washes.

We went through a very confusing anarchic period in about 72/73 when a variety of shirts were being purchased and worn, particularly by officers. These ranged from a very pale duck egg blue through a vivid near turquoise greeny blue to the darker wedgewood style, often accompanied by the very fashionable knitted black tie. As a result few people looked alike in uniform and it was not until towards the end of the 70s when the wedgewood shirt appeared that 'uniformity' was once again established

Ahhhh yes who could forget the green dot on ones throat from the front collar stud LOL :)
The best working 'uniform' of course was the old No1 jacket converted to a No2 jacket...very comfy :)

Commando .

Commando! Blimey - can't think how I ended up with that. I was probably the most un-warlike airman on the station. :)

Nothing to add to the shirt query but no-one seems to have commented on the introduction of staybrite/anodised badges and buttons. Later than 1960, certainly. I went to the far east in March 1967 and was certainly wearing brass buttons up to that point, as were my airmen. On return in January 1969 it was all staybrites and I remember getting a set of "high dome" staybrite buttons for my number one to replace the brass ones, which had gone an interesting shade of green in storage!

Interestingly, in my years of trading in militaria I have often come across RAF "king's crown" (ie pre 1953) anodised buttons, and have never yet had a satisfactory explanation for these - possibly a trial, as many army units, particularly the technical corps, were going over to staybrites at that time. I used to do a good trade in RAF queen's crown brass cap badges with airmen who wanted to replace the tatty anodised badge on their SD cap - but the introduction of the embroidered thing in the 90s put an end to that trade.

Was issued with the blue shirts collars attached and Thunderbird jacket in March 76 at Swinditz, however whilst training at St Athans post Swinditz, some of the WRAF'S trainies were still being issued and wearing hairy mary's, as they used to ask if anyone had spare pyjama bottoms to wear under them, we were still getting the old overalls with the rubber buttons to wear, but these were replaced with the Velcro grey with dark blue collar jobbies on qualifying. The dark blue workshirts, 2nd pair of No2 trousers and lightweight trousers came out a wee bit later than 78 I think, more like 79 to 80 ish.

As for coats, I liked my Harold Wilson Mac, I refused to exchange it for the Dell Boy Trotter version that came out later, trouble was when it rained you stood out like a sore thumb, but at least it kept me dry.

When I signed on as a Boy Entrant in Jan 64 we were issued with 3 shirts and 6 collars. The reversable variety came much later. At some point during the next 18 months we were issued with one collar attached shirt with buttons that came only half way down and it had 2 breast pockets. It was said that they were originally meant for SNCOs but were very unpopular so it was decided to make a general issue of the item. The collar attached shirt could only be worn with No.2 uniform. We also purchased the plastic collars, which I found to be very uncomfortable but were very easy to clean. (3 shirts = 1 on, 1 off and 1 in the wash.

Clip-on ties were never permitted and if caught wearing one it was punishable by being bound up with barbed wire or sent to the tin room for a week. They were easy to spot because we were not allowed to have a Windsor knot.

As BEs our working dress was the old National Service Best Blue - ie Similar to the Best blue style but made of Hairy Mary material and with brass buttons. Stay-bright beret badges were permitted only in No.2 and were private purchase only. We were never allowed stay-bright buttons on our T63.


Aaron.

Hi-dome staybrite - 1969?
Optional duck egg blue/green shirt - 1970?
Wedgewood blue shirt - 1973??
Thunderbird jacket - 1974
Wings on wooly pullies - 1978?
Beret - last worn in 1974. Never again!!

Windsor knots were forbidden at my school. But at RAFC they were mandatory.

Then there were the joys of the single-ended bow tie with Mess Kit - as well as the stiff-fronted shirt, white waistcoat and wing collar, which fortunately all disappeared in the early 1970s except for Royal occasions. I only had to wear that hideously uncomfortable 'formal' No 5 dress once, thank heavens!

78 must of been about the time they screwed a decent wooly pullie up by giving it a vneck.

No, the V-neck prep school pullover came in a few years later. Ridiculous looking thing it was too.

In the mid-eighties, M&S did a shirt that was quite acceptable in colour-terms, and was as smart as an arse. No epaulettes though. Particularly good collar.

As for the cheese-cutter hat on a dfferent thread, I was the first to wear one at Muharraq in '70 (or thereabouts) - much to the annoyance of OC Eng, who asked me to report to OC Admin, with a reason. First time that I was able to tell a Senior Oficer that he was out of order, ignored him, and walked on. Plonk.

As a B/E in 1960/61 I have a vague recollection of staybrite buttons being available for purchase with the cap badge coming later. Our uniforms were referred to as Best Blue (T63) or Working Blue (with jacket not battledress style). Battledress was issued later on leaving St. Athan IIRC. No one ever referred to them as No.1s or 2s. These numbers usually described ones intention when going to the bogs. The Best Blue, if memory serves, was of something called Barathea (Sp)

Around 1966/7 there was a trial with an aircrew No 2 that had zips in the jacket instead of flap pockets. OC 230, Dave Todd, knew somebody who was running this trial and when it stopped he purloined the unused ones and handed them out to our squadron. A few years later when I came back from the Far East mine had been superceded by the woolly pully.

V-neck wolly pully was very early 90's, or very, very late 80's I'm sure. Lightweight No2 trousers about mid 80's.

TTN, our No 1s were built with staybright flats in '61.

Aaron, I got my first clipon in '65 in the States. Game definitely when I saw the stn cdr at Waddo wearing one in '67.

Jindabyne, those M&S ones were also available, with epaulettes, in that awful blue-green in the late '60s too. Different shade from the NAAFI ones, now there's a surprise.

Shack37

I agree we only referred to Best Blue and Working Blue. Battledress was coming in in early 62. In Jan 62 I was one of a handful of my apprentice entry who got an initial issue of battledress as they'd run out of our sizes in jackets. But stores didn't want to part with them if they could help it! Didn't call them Storemen for nothing!

The staybrite 'high domed' buttons came in '69 to '71 - for which one was issued with a bill from SCAF!! All uniforms including greatcoat had to be 'done' by a certain date; it was a DIY arrangement - the brand new Mrs FZ took a dim view of this :E

Wasn't that a Bomber Command thing? Beagle or P-N will know. I remember a PO who was a chopped pilot turning up at Catterick to do the Regiment officers' course in one on those things, complete with Regiment flashes. I think it lasted till lunchtime when he was ordered back to the mess to change. Mind you he didn't last any longer as a potential rockape than he had as a pilot!

TTN
Saw this at Ballykelly on Coastal Command too in 1968. Don't think it caught on though.

The zuit suit was classed as a flying suit and intended that high altitude crews, all Mk 2 Vs and the Lightning force would wear it and it was designed with a hole in the trousers for your G-pants and AVS tubes. In parallel it had been decreed that the working dress would be your second No 1 so that we were then given an allowance to buy a second No 1.

It looked most odd the Mk 2 crews on the OCU in '64 all wearing the free zuit suit and the Mk 1 crews in No 1.

We never flew in just a zuit suit but used to carry them in a large valise in case of diversion. By 1969 stocks were exhausted but rumour had it that there were still some in Cyprus. On posting there I hot footed it to stores but they only had one for a 6 foot 4 gorilla weighing over 200lbs. Then only 5-10 and 168lbs I immediately said I'll have it. The Paki tailor did wonders and with KD in the summer that free uniform lasted me until the International Rescue zuit suit came in and that lasted until the woolly pully and the lightweight trousers when the latter came in in 1984.

I never did buy that 2nd No 1 and bought a second hand one from a retiree in 1975. My next one was a Burtons, also from a retiree when I took over his job 25 years later.

Only ever had two SD hats in all my time too.

Although barathea battledress was an option in the late 1960s, there was indeed an 'aircrew' version which was discotniued before I joined the RAF. It was similar in style to barathea battledress, but had sewn-down epaulattes and zip front pockets, as well as an AVS zip aperture.

I understood that only V-force and Lightning aircrew were entitled to it; the reason for its existence being, so I was told, that the Soviets had said that they wouldn't recognise flying clothing as 'uniform'.

Both 'normal' and 'V-force' barathea battledress were much, much smarter than the awful, shapeless 1972-pattern 'Thunderbird' thing. But even that was better than a V-necked pullover and tie - the last time I'd worn something like that was at prep school!

Anyway - wedgewood blue shirt with proper tie (how appallingly working class it would be to wear a clip-on tie...:yuk: ), lightweight No 2 trousers with stable belt loops and stable belt, zipped flying boots and shortened aircrew leather jacket - plus a proper officer's SD cap. And to hell with the SWO's blood pressure!

Perhaps you were a loving airman :)

Ah P-N, the Burtons No. 1 brings back a memory from the peace-protesting times of the late 1960s. A friend of mine, as usual short of the readies and looking for an inexpensive solution to a looming problem, went into his local branch of Burtons for a new uniform:

"I'd like an RAF Officer's No. 1 uniform please."

"Certainly Sir. What colour would you like it?"


:sad:

Perhaps you were a loving airman :)
Didn't have much chance of that, Brakes - it was a non-WRAF unit and all the local village girls seemed to be otherwise engaged. :*