No more GR4 WSOs?
 

I've just read on UKAR that the last batch of WSOs have been trained by 100 Sqn. As the GR4 out of service date is not until 2020, could be argued that this last batch will stretch to then, without any need to train anymore?:confused:

FB:)

If they dont stop recruiting, what are they going to do with all the WSO's when the JSF/F35 comes into service on target/time.

Moi, they stopped recruiting some time ago, hence why this is the last batch.

I presume planning has been done, looking at the number of qualified GR4 backseaters still around in other jobs who could come back to the force. Let's hope they don't all PVR or something...!

The more-cynical answer is that they're assuming the OSD will come left considerably after 2015 when we leave Afghanistan.

And as I said before, if a stick monkey they can probably get another SM in the back.

Not the end of Nav training though. 750 NAS at Culdrose forges ahead with the KingAir Avenger as the MFTS Rear Crew Sqn.

Wouldn't believe everything you see on UKAR. Remember it's a spotters site full of experts!!


Wiretensioner

Wot's gonna happen at Leeming then?

Wouldn't be the first time...several new F3 pilots found themselves in the back seat for a short period circa 2000-1.

Check IOT grad notices, WSOs haven't been going through for a year or two now.

Seemed like a good idea but RADAR manipulation/handling/interpretation is a skill in itself - just like the Navs that crossed over to Pilot found out that "poling" also needed a full course to get the hang of! Equally, RHWR and ECM handling is also an art. "Horses for courses" comes to mind - you don't use a cart horse to run the Grand National, and you don't use a Hunter to pull a brewery cart - I'll leave you to decide which is what! :E

We tried using Fighter Controllers in the boot of an F3 and quite frankly they could do some of the tasks very well but lacked airmindedness and airmanship. We tried using AEOs and AEOps in the boot of Tornados various, but they were trained for larger ISTAR types and lacked the low/medium/high level Nav skills. In my opinion, Navs aren't precious or skilled more than other branch (they might be cleverer!!), but you can train anyone to do anything; but can't assume that training for another role (ie. Pilot) will make them good for something else (ie. WSO Nav).

Just my opinion after seeing this tried a few times over my 22 years...

LJ

Bloody hell LJ.
You could be nailed to a tree for that kind of heresy around here!
Pilots not omnicompetent Gods who have descended from the skies?!!

Burn him! He's a witch. :E

Leon Jabachjabicz:
Oh really? When, and to what end? I can't imagine why the Nav Mafia would even contemplate such a thing. I know many AEOps who have gone on to be successful Tornado pilots and navs, on commissioning and after training of course. Don't get too precious about RADAR manipulation and EW, they have been core skills of NCA for many years, long before the first Tornado nav learnt to switch on his computerized RHWR. As for low level nav skills, you'd better ask all the rotary wing NCA how they get on with that.

Navigators - protecting seats whilst eyeing ups everybody else's since 1942.

Questions, questions...

They tried AEOs and AEOps for Tornado in the 80s and they didn't crack it - hence the big uptake of Navs for Tornado in the late 80s and early 90s to replace the aging F4/Bucc/V-force Navs.

Stealing since 1942 eh? Try 1915 when the Observer was first used in WW1 - this turned into Nav and Bomb Aimer in 1942. Air Gunners started 1939, which broke off into Air Signaller in 1943 and Radar Observer in 1941 - blobbing them up into AEO and AEOp that did not come along until 1963! The biggest travesty was when the WSO and WSOp was formed in 2003 by blobbing all the aircrew brevets into 1 - apart from the FCs, ATs, IAs and PJis!!! The original plan was for a 2-wing badge for FJ Navs that would be renamed Weapons Systems Officers or WSOs like the rest of the Western World. Somehow, some bunch of senior officers f@cked it all up and came up with the abomination of the WSO/WSOp and the d0gsh!t badge that goes with it - they would have been better bringing back the Flying-O Observer badge as it at least it had some history behind it (in fact it would be more senior than the RAF pilots' wings as they came along in 1918 and the seniors would never have supported that!).

As for RW WSOp LL nav - funny I thought the co-pilot did that and the WSOp dished out the Mars bars and manned up the General or the Mini-Gun on ops? :ok:

Don't forget that Navs have been using RWR/RADAR in Meteors/Javelins/Buccs/F4s for as long as AEO/AEOps have been around since 1963.

Finally, if you re-read my post you will see that I said you can train anyone to do anything (mostly) - hence that is why the AEOps that you mention became Tornado Pilots and Navs. :confused:

LJ

Sargs wrote:
I think the answer to that would be; "At much, much slower speeds!"


Leon wrote: I am the living proof of that. An ex SAC from Air Traffic who can now drive aeroplanes, albeit slower than Leon.

Leon,

very little nav on ops. Big line of mountains East to West, river North to South at one end, city of Kandahar dwarfed by massive airbase at the other.

Most of the time it's IP to grid work once in the green zone and by that point the NCA are firmly nailed to the trigger [for good reason].

However, I know ex-SH crewmen who now reside in both seats of GR4's - so it isn't some mystical art.

Manning up the General and dishing out the mars bars? - I think you need to get out more.

Airpolice - Yes, at much lower speeds.

MGD

Made me chuckle as I typed it (simple things amuse...and all that!)

:ok:

LJ

LJ, remind me where conducted in the Typhoon?

In fact an SM back seat tour on the Tonka might be beneficial to future tiffy drivers.

As for FC backenders in the F3, I knew a couple, in fact one upgraded my PC for me. Your is equally true but they seem to have coped in the last 20 years.

And that, Ladies & Gentlemen, is what t'interweb is for.

This isn't work, it's entertainment.

As a 'past' wannabe WSO, I would like to wish all three WSO graduates the very best of luck with their future careers.

NDW