PPRuNe Forums - Rafale wins Indian order

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Quote:

Originally Posted by pr00ne

According to the Indian AF, MMRCA is a Mig-21 replacement

I would love to see a source for that! I'm sure the MMRCA can do a fair bit of what the MiG-21 could, but not at the fly-away cost. The hope is that the Light Combat Aircraft/Tejas will do the job and till then the Mirage 2000 covers some of the role (interception) and the MiG-27 the rest (CAS).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wannabe Flyer

So I think they are not doing an apples for apples but re configuring for the current scenario where Mig 21 - 27 and the Jags will be retiring to be replaced by a single aircraft to carry that load.

This is what I believe, too. Not all Jags, though, some of ours are not even ten years old!

Quote:

What radar mode are you operating in? What tradeoffs have you made between pulse duration, duty ratio, scan speed? What tradeoffs have you made in antenna setup for sidelobe performance, ECM, etc? How far off-axis is the target? Have you got a swashplate design, or a fixed forward-only array? How sensitive are your receivers, how much loss is built into the system? How much does the aircraft nose cone distort the signal? How effective are your signal processing algorithms? How much processing power did you build into the signal and data processors to carry out those algorithms?

All of those factors can be applied equally to a 700 or 600 mm aperture radar. The larger one will always - assuming the same technology change is applied to each - have a range advantage.

It's like the engine size in a car at the end of the day. Yes a 1.6 turbo 16v can be more powerful than a 2.0 n/a 8v car. But implement turbocharging & a 16v head on the 2.0 and it will always have the potential to deliver more power.

The same applies to the radar aperture. I'd be interested to know if my 8% assumed basic benefit from the radar range equation for rafale vs typhoon is sound. I think it is a valid point as while you can play with/upgrade signal processing etc. it is, for practically purposes, impossible to alter the diameter of the airframe at the radome. Rafale will only have 600mm for 30+ years.

Ok so basically what you are saying is that in reality the Rafale radar is better then.

The "my car has a bigger engine but yours is more powerful" example speaks for itself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KAG

Ok so basically what you are saying is that in reality the Rafale radar is better then"

No, I'm not. JFZ is correct when he says "all other things being equal, bigger is better"; the problem is that they generally aren't equal. Engineering is about tradeoffs and optimizations - you might find that each outperforms the other under certain circumstances, it isn't as black-and-white as "k3wl b1g radar pwns ur feeble fanboi e4t"

For instance; I would be very surprised if Rafale outperforms Typhoon when the aircraft "definitely isn't pointing at the target" (avoiding all mention of actual angles), because that's a known limitation of fixed single-array AESA. Typhoon currently has a mechanically-scanned antenna that can point its full effort in a single direction, and the trialled Typhoon AESA has a mounting that lets it angle the array to mitigate this.

Having worked on the design side of Blue Vixen and CAPTOR (ECR-90 as it was then), I was rather proud of what we produced; but that was over a decade ago, and I genuinely have no idea how well or badly RBE2 performs compared to CAPTOR. I also haven't got a clue about how well RBE2-AA works, or how it compares to CAESAR.

If the CAESAR production contract goes ahead, I would be surprised if the T/R element technology isn't as least as good as (if not better than) the RBE2-AA T/R elements, simply due to Moore's law - if you go to design freeze two years later, you get two years improvements in process technology.

I agree with all gravelbelly says - I had a feeling that there was some crewe toll experience given the Edinburgh location.

My point was only a simple one about size, though its true that many other factors apply. That said an 8% benefit/improvement in any aspect of radar performance is not something to be sniffed at.

I also don't know whether the rafale pesa is better / worse than ecr90, though I recall the rumour being ecr90 as fundamentally an excellent mech radar based on sound proven technology, whereas the rbe was a bit of a technology deadend (in a similar way to fmicw foxhunter ai24). Rbe pesa looks sexy in the brochures but it doesn't offer the true advantages of an aesa radar.

This is potentially academic as I assume the Indians would get the aesa rafale, not the pesa one, which you can assume is a much better system (if they've mastered the tech). Also worth noting that there maybe a telling reason why rafale is getting the aesa upgrade & typhoon hasn't yet - i.e. the pesa rafale needed the upgrade a lot more than an ecr90 typhoon and as such was easier to justify. Just speculation of course.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JFZ90

Also worth noting that there maybe a telling reason why rafale is getting the aesa upgrade & typhoon hasn't yet - i.e. the pesa rafale needed the upgrade a lot more than an ecr90 typhoon and as such was easier to justify. Just speculation of course.

Or the PESA was easier and cheaper to upgrade than the ECR90.

Or the French were able to decide to do the upgrade... whereas the ECR90 upgrade is mired in a multi-national committee, amidst arguing over production shares, cost estimates, desired performance thresholds, and who still owes who for lunch and that bet over last week's FIFA matches!

Or a dozen other possible reasons that have little or nothing to do with which systems performs better in which areas... I strongly suspect that each systems has areas where it is superior and ones in which it is inferior!

Unless you can get hold of the classified performance documents for both current systems, as well as the classified documents on the new systems, including costings and so on, all you can give is biased personal-preference wild guesses!

GK you maybe right - I'm just speculating on other possibilities - I think it is too easily assumed that the reasons are some of the common ones oft repeated.

Have the US ever fielded a pesa ai radar? Was it any good?

The more time does elapse, the more it becomes difficult for the anglo-saxon world to swallow it.
One of the most common ideas of them, written widespread over the media and the net, is that "so far Rafale has been unable to attract a single export order" So what ?
Now they say "Typhoon has biggest margin for improvement" - in other words, it's not finished, a lot of key capabilities are missing, so yes all that could be done one day... at a significant cost, with no guarantee that it could ever work or be finished (look at Nimrod Mk2 or Nimrod "AWACS") and for that development to take place, agreements would have to be found with the other consortium nations... and those countries are just so lagging behind, no longer wanting to commit a single penny or even to finish their current orders...
And now the British PM says "we will make the Typhoon less expensive" ... which is in total contradiction with the above story about future required development, isn't it ?
Stop saying Typhoon can drop a laser-guided bomb : it can... like any fighter, even a Hunter could do that, with a smarter aircraft illuminating the target (remember Buccaneers and Tornadoes in the first Gulf War)
And what about recce pods, cruise missiles, anti-ship missiles, carrier landing capability for the dedicated version ??? and for this last point, don't say the future Indian carrier will not need it : that ship is far from being finished, and design is not frozen...
Answering all those questions does give you the keys of the deal. Yes, it was a very important deal for both aircraft, a question of survival, and one had to lose...

All that is a little bit reminiscent of the last Rugby Cup : how could it be, really, that France did beat Wales, England, and finished close to beating NZ ? yes, how could it be ?

Allez la France.

http://s2.lemde.fr/image/2012/01/31/...6126220717.jpg

"France did beat Wales, England, and finished close to beating NZ ? yes, how could it be ?"

Only one possible answer - they must have cheated!!!!

To all of us still dreaming :

Given all this, (Indian) MoD has ruled out the possibility of "any comeback" by Typhoon despite carping by the four nations (UK, Germany, Spain and Italy) backing it

That's from "The Times of India" of today.

IAF fighter deal: Rafale much cheaper than Typhoon; govt rules out review - The Times of India

Well, perhaps it's not all bad news - surely there's a gap now in competing for the supply of all the maintenance and support for the Rafale?

We (Brits) have a few decent maintenance companies that are quite capable of taking on a relatively small fleet of 120+ jets that may not fly 500 hours per year.

That contract itself could generate about 500-600 jobs plus the Indian and french percentages...and over at least 5-10 years...?

"Secret Defense", a blog by the french journalist J-D Merchet (defense specialist), announce that India will share some of its MMRCA evaluation experience with Brazil.

The source is this article of the Times of India.

On the same billet, the blog links a leaked flight evaluation report (in english) by the Swiss Air Force (indeed, the billet is titled "In Switzerland, the military believe that the Gripen is unable to fulfill the tasks set")
As I feel it may enlighten some of the India's stories, I report it here (haven't found any more relevant topic on the swiss competition).
Abstract:

Quote:

Among the three NFA candidates, the Rafale was the aircraft which demonstrated the best effectiveness and suitability in the accomplishment of all types of Air-to-Air missions, Recce and Strike missions. In addition, the Rafale made the best impression to the pilots.
The strong points of the Rafale were the quality of its sensors such as the PESA radar, the Frontal Optronics and the EW suite SPECTRA. The good data fusion of all its sensors allowed to provide to the pilot a very good Situational Awareness. A new concept to display all mission data has been implemented. The Recce Pod demonstrated also outstanding performances. The actual weak point of the Rafale was the lack of Helmet Mounted Sight System. The Rafale has been rated satisfactory in the accomplishment of all types of Air-to-Air, Recce and Strike missions with some enhancing characteristics in several domains. The Rafale obtained the 1st rank in the evaluation of the effectiveness.

The Eurofighter was able to fulfill all Mission Essential Tasks required by Air-to-Air missions. Hence, in the Air-to-Air domain, there were several deficiences that prevented a good execution of some mission essential tasks. The a/c performances (super cruise at Mach 1.4) were among the strong points of the Eurofighter. The sensor data fusion and the EW suite performances can be mentionned among the weak points.
The Eurofighter was rated satisfactory for Air Policing missions and satisfactory with comments in the accomplishment of DCA and Escort missions. The Eurofighter could be engaged in Recce and Strike missions, nevertheless there were also several limiting factors affecting the overall mission success. Range and systems reliability were the main limiting factors of the Eurofighter. The RecceLite Pod provided only basic solutions for Recce Tasks. For Strike missions, the Eurofighter was not able to engage multiple targets in one pass (multiple DMPI). Despite the mentioned limitations, the capabilities of the Eurofighter to fulfill Recce and Strike missions were rated as unsatisfactory. The Eurofighter obtained the 2nd rank in the evaluation of the effectiveness.

Although the Gripen could be engaged in all type of Air-to-Air, Recce or Strike missions, there were several limiting factord affecting the overall mission success. Given by its design, the endurance, aircraft performances and aircraft weapon load were among the main limiting factors of the Gripen.
For Recce missions, the RecceLite Pod was also used by the Gripen. Multiple targets were not able to be engaged during Strike missions. There was no sensor data fusion between the Radar and EW suite. Among the strong points, the Gripen has three large screens to display Situational Awareness and mission data. The EW suite can be mentionned among the strong points of the Gripen.
The Gripen has been rated unsatisfactory in the accomplishment for Air-to-Air and Strike missions. In the Recce domain the Gripen was assessed satisfactory with comments. The Gripen obtained the 3rd rank in the evaluation of the effectiveness.

Blog.
Report.

Going back to the thread's origin, I would like to ask if someone knows why the us did not offer the F35 in the indian competition. Politics?

Thanks for your answers

Not so much politics. F-35 was unqualified on grounds of inability to meet schedule, inability to perform in-country demonstrations, impracticality of necessary technology transfer, and no doubt many other reasons. (I'd love to see an F-35 attempt a take-off at Leh on a hot day, without reprising the old ZELL concept and strapping a 150K lb thrust solid booster to its a**e.)

The report referenced by the french blog relates to trials conducted in 2008 and promised capabilities in 2015. Is it still correct and relevant?

@ engineer(retard): I'm not aware of any "revolution" in the developpment roadmap of any of the 3 contenders, so basically I would say 'yes'.
Do you have other data making you think those results now are irrelevant (I can't see why they would be incorrect)?

AZR stop being defensive, it was a reasonable question. I don't have an axe to grind about the selection, are you involved with any of the contenders?

Have any of the contenders had a change or capability upgrade in the last 4 years?

Do any of those capability upgrades effect the conclusions of the Swiss report?

Have they all delivered their roadmap capability in the last 4 years?

What external dependencies are there to achieving their capability e.g funding?

I can think of those questions off the top of my head without trying if I wanted to use old information to base a decision on today.

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However, I believe that if Obama had promised the mighty F35 to India they could have been willing to wait a few more years to get a 5th gen fighter.
Other countries are already facing capabilities gaps while they are expecting the F35...

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeCrazyFrog

Other countries are already facing capabilities gaps while they are expecting the F35...

A very interesting quote, from a civilian.
If you are from a lazy or peaceful place (follow my glance) you can have a capability gap, as you say. And you are even totally free to wait for something promised to be wonderful, not finished, but costly for sure.
If you are from India - Israel - Turkey - France - UK - ... ? - you can't wait, period. You cannot afford a gap.
If you are an airline, and you have to wait for the Boeing 787 to be delivered/finished, it's really not a big deal : you keep flying other aircraft which are doing the same job, you rent some others... now if you are an Air Force, the consequences of waitng for the proper aircraft could be a problem (once again, provided we speak from a country with some action overseas or at the borders)
You say : the "mighty" F-35 .. ?.. why mighty ? because it's american, and by definition it has to be a great aircraft ? for the moments it seems to have its fair share of problems, and budgets overflows. Indians were very right in saying they were not interested - and they did explain why !