You may not like his work but he is a famous Belgian René Magritte - Olga's Gallery

Belgium, a potentially endless thread filled with wonders ,weird stuff and downright bizare facts.

But like a wiser man rightfully notices:
so here goes,

Like already said, the deal is not sealed just yet, it looks further from fact than initially the French claimed but closer than the EF consortium hoped.
Don't be surprised if all this is put a bid on longhold to aid Sarko with his campaign timing for his next presidential election.
and furthermore;

French Rafale UAE deal back on-report | Reuters

So if all ,or most, goes well RAFALE and the French industry have potentially
3 or 4 new customers signed and sealed and Sarkozy will come out smelling as roses.
Just in time for elections end april begin may, talk about coincidence.

Forgive my naive question.

Will the Indian g'ment be inclined to change its mind? It won't want to alienate the French I imagine, but in order to keep a valuable (?) friend like the UK onside, could there be a 'reluctant' about face in the near future?

Many famous Belgian in France, Jacques Brel for example.

As for France...
In Europe it has to be understood that when it comes:
-to space (the very successful Arianespace in french guyana, one of the busiest space port in the world, if not the busiest),
-to airliners (Airbus),
-to helicopter (Eurocopter),
-or jet fighters (Dassault),
the core, the center and the source are in each of this cases France.
That's only a fact, it might change in the future, but today this is the case and the sooner Europe will understand it for the future projects, the better it will be.

Now the Rafale itself. Comon! Some posters seem to be surprised here...
This last past century in Europe, ONLY France has sold THOUSANDS of jet fighters (french Dassault jet fighter) all around the world, involved in many different wars.

The french Dassault jet fighters have a war experience this half past century that nobody can match in Europe. As simple as that.

India (like many countries around the world) already had and still have many Dassault jet fighters. Rafale is a Dassault jet fighter, in fact there is no surprise here in the fact Rafale has been chosen.

KAG, you seem to be suggesting that Rafale was only selected because of Dassault's past glories. At least, that is how I read it.

Yes, France has exported large numbers of jet fighters across the world, and they have seen conflict in many countries. But let's remember that their reputation (and particularly that of the Mirage III) was largely down to their operation by Israel throughout the 1950s and 1960s against mostly inferior opposition. Had France not made the decision to begin supplying Israel with military aircraft then it could be a very different story. In fact, the day that France cancelled orders from the Israeli government following the 1967 Six Day War, and thus prompting Israel to look elsewhere for its military needs, must have been a bad one for the French arms industry. Compare the number of Mirage 2000s built compared to how many exported F-16s have left the factory. France also made a number of sales to regimes and countries that, quite frankly, no-one else would deal with.

But as far as India is concerned, and if you want to play the numbers game, they have flown 104 Ouragans, 110 Mystere IVs and 49 Mirage 2000s (abandoning plans for a further 110s M2000s and buying MiG-29s instead) for a total of 263 French jets. Compare that with 30 Vampires, 235 Hunters, 110 Canberras, 292 Gnats/Ajeets, 144 Jaguars and 25 Sea Harriers, along with 143 (so far) Hawks currently being built, supplied by or built under licence from the UK (989 aircraft), which really does beg the question as to why India was put in Germany's marketing territory and not the UK's. Mind, even that pales against the numbers of Soviet/Russian jets supplied to India over the years- nearly 1000 MiG-21s alone.

And let's not forget that France has ended up as the leader in much of European aerospace because their view of a collaborative project is 'our design, our test programme, our factory, and you can build some small parts to go on it', which was one reason why the French left the Eurofighter project. The one exception was the Jaguar, which the French government denigrated at every opportunity in order to promote the Mirage F.1.

mmmhhh.... don't want to get into bag pulling here, however...

- when the french stopped providing the israelis with Mirage, they copied the design, proof it couldn't be that bad...
- if we are only considering facts against a "superior" enemy, can you give us some examples please?
- KAG was mentioning Europe, therefore F-16 is out of the equation...
- country regime-wise, is selling EF to..say, the saudis more acceptable than other customers? Please tell us where do you set the limit.
- As for european cooperation, you seem to forget Lynx, Gazelle, Pumas just to stay on the military. I haven't heard the Frogs denigrating neither of those...

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

There is a topic in this thread, please keep to it.

Al R wrote
I guess the question to be asked is does India regard UK as a valuable friend?

UK governments appear to have been concentrating on being a good European since joining EU, and have largely turned there back on Commonwealth countries.
Fair enough, but UK can't now, when convenient, resort to status of valuable friend when it suits them. A case of making your bed and lying in it.

John

PS I suspect there is still a fondness for the UK people in Commonwealth countries, bit less for the UK Government.

What a load of Grollocks - The UK has of course been trying a good European, but I feel the thought they have "have largely turned there back on Commonwealth countries" inappropriate and simply not correct.

Maintaining focus on India, I feel certain that successive British Governments have been supporting India in many ways and non the least in terms of financial aid (despite the latter increasingly going into the face of public opinion).

Even if the UK were not a member of the European Community they would still have to pay a lot of attention to what was going on in their own back yard, common sense dictates such. I don't see the government turning their back on Commonwealth countries (even in places where a republican sentiment periodically rears it's head) though often there may not be a lot of visibility in what is going on. I'm pretty sure that on a government to government level the same rapport continues as before and if a need becomes evident and if the UK is able to assist, then I'm sure assistance in one form or another will be forthcoming.

Q-RTF-X
I'm not sure you would know what the feeling is in Commonwealth countries.
Indeed UK govts have turned their back - ask NZ about access to your market after UK entered Common Market.
An example - until UK Foreign Secretary came to Australia last year, no Foreign Secretary had been, if I recal, for about 10 years.
So bollocks is in the eye of the beholder, and you can remain with your smug idea that all is going swimmingly with UK and its relations with Commonwealth.

rjtjrt

I am sure that over time there are changes in relationships based on changes in the overall world situation and of course the very regulated European situation, which is the cause of significant ongoing dispute between the UK and the EU themselves.

I have in the last decade visited NZ a couple of times and far more frequently Australia. These were on business visits within the aviation community including in some instances the Air Forces of both countries. I did not get the impression during these visits there was any serious degradation of the relationship. Be that as it may, all are entitled to their own opinions and perspective.

Seems to be a lot of flag flying and a Europe divided :sad:

However both aircraft seem to have made the shortlist on the extensive field trials! so let us for a moment assume they are theoretically on par in the varied control environment. I am also assuming their pricing was relatively similar for them to have reached the same cut off. Then it comes down to the political considerations. I am sure the following would have played a role

India - France extensive military sales relationship from Ships to planes to technology.

Mirage 2000 in Kargil

Current upgrade program for the above

Scorpene Sub program

France lifted all embargoes first post nuclear deal and has signed on fast to fund the reactors here and allow India into the nuclear club.

Lets put it this way, the French much like the Russians have too much stake in India and probably will not ditch the Indians in a tight spot. On the other Hand the Germans, British tend to tow the US line and in a potential conflict in their friendly neighborhood the French have more chances of coming thru than the rest of consortium.

Lets be realistic regardless of the typhoon or the Rafael both can probably knock the socks of the J-7 and aging F-16 aircraft so there is no real issue there. The issue is that when push comes to shove which country will stand by and which will wag their finger. That IMHO is probably first and foremost political consideration.

That said the Yanks are getting a chance in many areas and will probably take about 20 more years to build trust, till then they need to be in less critical areas of parts supply.

That said it aint over till the fat lady has sung, but either will be a better sight than the Mig 21.

British defence, security sector trade mission to visit India - World - DNA

Bet the chequebooks will be brought to suggest a change of mind.

Funny the UAE changing its stance on Rafale deal, could this be something to do with France putting lots of its equipment in place and its carrier close to the Persian Gulf for an attack on Iran. West acting as Mercs for Saudi's and their allies in exchange for trade deals.

The Typhoon bid in India was, and is, lead by the Germans. For all Cameron's pleas, his influence is marginal.

That not just in India thats everywhere :rolleyes:

Possibly because both countries have, since being discarded by the UK, managed perfectly well without it!

From my reading of the sale, the deal is not signed nor by any means is the French bid guaranteed success.

Maybe the fact that the Rafale is advertised with 'Nuclear Strike' as one of it's core missions is what helped win it.

Finnpog,

No, it's simpler than that. The Rafale looks like an aircraft should, not like a bunch of bits from multiple manufacturers just bolted together.

The French know how aircraft should look; sexy, curved, aggressive, useful. The Typhoon looks like a bunch of sharp pointy bits glued together.

Looks sell.

The UK used to know how fighty planes should look. They lost the plot though and decided computers know better. You then end up with things like the AEW3 & the Typhoon.

An Indian perspective - from tomorrows Times of India

9 factors that may have helped Dassault sell its Rafale fighter this week - The Economic Times

Hval,
I do agree that the Rafale looks the mutt's nuts. The phots from when they deployed a Flotille with the USN (USS Harry S Truman ?) showed the M model off a treat.
Reading Dassault's publicity on their website, they make a big bit about austere field worthiness and not over-complicating the design.
A real pity that these won't be getting bought for the WAFUs.

I would not be suprised if the MoD / RAF / HM Treasury's decision to sell loads of our Typhoons rather than keeping them is sonehow not a selling point.

What India thinks of the UK, and the aid it gives to them.......

India tells Britain: We don't want your aid - Telegraph

I hope Downing Street is listening to these ungrateful http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...s/censored.gifrds, and is tearing up the next cheque.

But somehow, I think they will keep on doling out UK taxpayers cash to this Nuclear power, with its own Space programme. :ugh:

sitigeltfel,

I don't see India as being ungrateful, just willing to state their wishes. It is the UK government that forced is desire to continue giving aid to the Indians. For what reasons, we do not yet know.

If I may hazard an opinion, it has been suggested before that most of the so-called "aid" is an offset grant allowing the Indian govt to purchase from British companies at a reduced cost. Now I don't know how true this is, but it might actually aid British manufacturing. Cutting this kind of aid may not be ideal.

The Rafale looks like an aircraft should, not like a bunch of bits from multiple manufacturers just bolted together.

The French know how aircraft should look; sexy, curved, aggressive, useful. The Typhoon looks like a bunch of sharp pointy bits glued together.

That airplane, your Rafale or Rachel or whatever you call her, would look a lot prettier without that refueling probe sticking out prominently in the breeze. It's like a big wart on an otherwise pretty woman's face.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ale-ec-1-7.jpg

Grand Daddy's A-6 has a plumbing pipe like that sticking out. It's old fashioned:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...der_VA-52.JPEG

In addition, that pipe, which looks to be close three feet long, probably creates siignificat drag as well as a noticeable humming or buzzing sound which can be heard in the cockpit..

Can't D'Assault devise a retractable refueling probe for the sexy, curved, aggressive Rafale? It would improve her looks.

I have une questionne. If I shined a flashlight into the Rafale's engine intakes, could I see compressor blades?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._Show_2007.jpg

The French love something on their proboscis.......:rolleyes:

I flew for years those fighters with the extended probe (F1, 2000) and also the ones with the retractable device (Jaguar, Super-Etendard)
Regarding drag, as you always have external loads nowadays, it's not such a big deal.

Having the probe permanently and rigidly extended (isn'it ?) means that it would not suffer from an electric or hydraulic failure, and stay inside the body when needed... :E

Modern Elmo- no
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...GMPoydPnIgAlt8

Très sexy, non?

Reason for chosing Rafael
 

Interesting article here.

An Insight Into Why the IAF Picked the Rafale

DT running a very balanced, sensible and well written article by Andrew Gilligan:

Turbulence ahead with Indian jet deal - Telegraph

Also points to the German lead as a limfac.....

The diameter of the radar in post 105 looks quite small, smaller than typhoon. How much smaller is the Rafale scanner in diameter when compared to captor/ECR-90?

Edit info from Internet......

Don't forget that the next RBE2 will be an AESA WITH sidelobe antennas, greatly improving Field Of View without needing a gimball and total number of T/R sensors is not limited by the nose diameter.

Something which was also planned for the F22 BTW but never materialized.

Andrew gilligan says it had the 'latest' ESA radar in Libya - surely this would have been the pesa version, which I thought was largely considered a technology deadend and not as good as captor?

I'll admit the true aesa due in rafale from 2013 production - should - be better, but who knows, they said that about the pesa.:rolleyes:

I thought aperture size would always be linked to range, all other things being equal. Radar equation hasn't changed I don't think.

I doubt radar range played much of a role - the IAF is transitioning to AEW-controlled sorties so the drop in effective range, if less, wasn't a top priority. Also, isn't the current CAPTOR mechanical while the RBE2 a phased array?

Anyway, it has been proved that THIS is the reason the Rafale won:

Catherine Auriol | Dassault Aviation | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

:E

BombayDuck

It's never going to hurt, that's for sure.

Harley,

Do you have a photo of a similar view looking into a Typhoon's nostrils?

Can any other PeePrune person point to a picture of an eye level view into Typhoon engine intakes?

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0...uinn_super.jpg

So they don't want the aid. Whatever. Can we have our call centres back? Especially that god-awful one for BT Broadband.

Turbine too hot: The Telegraph article starts like that:


A reminder:


Eurofighter Jagdflugzeug GmbH (English: Eurofighter Fighter aircraft GmbH) is a multinational company that co-ordinates the design, production and upgrade of the Eurofighter Typhoon, this includes incorporating the jet engines designed and manufactured by EuroJet Turbo GmbH.

Founded in 1986, it has its head office in Hallbergmoos, Bavaria, Germany. The company is made up of the major aerospace companies of the four Eurofighter partner nations.

46%: EADS
-----33% EADS Deutschland GmbH (Germany)
-----13% EADS CASA (Spain)
33%: BAE Systems (United Kingdom)
21%: Alenia Aeronautica (Italy)


Cameron wrongly comparing the French Rafale and the "British-built Typhoon" tells a lot about the accuracy in the second statement of his sentence: superb aircraft with far better capabilities.


For an Air Force without aircraft carrier, the Typhoon could be a choice.

Fact is that in 2012 in the Airplanes (Airbus/Dassault), helicopters (Eurocopter), space (Arianespace) and nuclear (Areva) top industry Europe could do without UK, but definitely not without France. A fact that Cameron should understand before comparing his "British-built Typhoon and French Rafale".

Why the Indian's suddenly preferred the Rafale?

The Hindu: Beyond the Rafale deal

...............At a more immediate level, the decision to buy the fighters, which has been greeted with unabashed glee in Paris, could provide the leverage for India to hold France to its promise of increasing cooperation across a whole range of areas, but especially in the nuclear and defence fields, including the greater sharing of technology and expertise. Of particular interest to New Delhi, is the question of enrichment and reprocessing (ENR) equipment transfers. The Nuclear Suppliers Group reneged on its 2008 bargain with India last year by banning the sale of ENR items but France — a key member of the nuclear cartel — has said it will not be bound by the new restrictions. The French must now be held to their word..................