Seeing all this wobbling around by the Eurofighter partners (of what is potentially a very promising weapon) makes me wonder if the Germans wouldn't
have been better off going with the French iso the Italians and Brits, 2 nations that begin a pan European multi billion project that could have been good for
its forces and industry and subsequently also get fully engaged with its
potentially biggest competitor, the JSF, be it only as glorified parts suppliers.

A French-German-Spanish program would've been a lot more effective and
wouldn't have had the problem of having a key partner that is essentially
unreliable because of a conflict of interest.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, we're just pissing away our ability
to develop,design and produce complete fighter aircraft that can compete with the best out there.
At the same time nobody seems to have a problem with getting completely
dependant of 1 US company that completely monopolizes the market with something that essentially more and more looks like a pipedream that won't meet is initial goals but nevertheless will be hideously expensive.

F35 so far looks like it;
-won't be as stealthy as initially envisioned
-will not carry some of the UK weapons
-has problems all throughout its flight envelope
-won't have its wunderhelmet but an of the shelf alternative instead
-won't have its sourcecode available for its customers
-will be at least 2.5 times as expensive as intitially envisioned
-won't be easy nor cheap to maintain
-will cost at least 40% more expensive to operate per flight hour compared with the F16
-etc..... .


It's easy to be critical about the French but one thing is sure they certainly don't lack vision and healthy ambition ,we should be honest with ourself and admit that they at least try to keep an indigenous fighter production capability alive.

And the paint will wash off in the rain.....

Not in the rain, only in supersonic.:E

Much to choose?
 

From my uneducated position it would seem there is quite a bit to choose between them, as the Rafale has a carrier variant (a stated Indian requirement, google "Indian IAC"), whereas the Eurofighter does not.

So either the Indians do what we are attempting (and seemingly finding it too expensive/difficult) and buy both a land based aircraft and a different carrier aircraft, or they do what the French have done and buy one that does both.

The whole life costs of running 1 fleet versus 2 ought to make a small difference in purchase price negligible. Assuming, of course, that cost is a factor rather than political machinations

Nick

so.. is this "game over" for this order as far as Typhoon is concerned then, or has it not that far...

Nick

Try Googling IAC and MiG29K. The MRCA requirement did not include carrier-capability and in any case Rafale may not actually be capable of recovery using STOBAR techniques. It's all in the nose gear loading and FCS......

If it is capable of STOBAR, then obviously it's nice to have a fall-back. Something we could learn from when setting our fast-jet requirements......

Scud,
i doubt its over from a financial shenanigans point of view, but i'm afraid that its over from a potential customer asking 'which is the better aircraft?' point of view.

Rafale is far more flexible in terms of where it can be based, it is far more multi-role than any Typhoon ever will be, and it is a proven in a sustained combat role.

Typhoon is probably a better dogfighter in a brillcream boys-esque, Battle-of-Britain styleee. whoop-fceking-doo.

That's an interesting statement, seeing as the Typhoon AESA programme is fifteen years old if you count AMSAR. Amusingly, Thomson-CSF (at the time, now Thales) has been a partner in GTDAR for most of those fifteen years. They were interested in producing a replacement for RBE-2; Selex for the CAPTOR. I suspect that RBE2-AA and CAESAR share a lot of underlying design.

Others will know more about the comparative performance of RBE2 and CAPTOR, and whether this has any bearing on the need to spend money on putting AESA into Rafale, compared with the need to spend money on putting AESA into Typhoon...

What, you mean like the Tiger helicopter?

:ok:

Ah yes - the "Warton Wonder" designed by a 4 nation consortium :ugh:

Nicholas Howard,

Wrong I'm afraid. The final downselect to two contenders selected the Rafale and Typhoon. Both of these types were 100% compliant with the technical and performance requirements and were declared good enough to do the job. The final selection was down to price and this is what has resulted in the Rafale moving forward to exclusive final negotiations.


The Indian choice for their carrier is the Mig 29K. The only other potential embarked type mentioned by the Indians is a possible variant of their much delayed indigenous light fighter.

cokecan,

No one has said that the Rafale is a better aircraft. Typhoon and Rafale were the final downselect, both deemed good enough to be chosen. Rafale is just cheaper. Now the really hard negotiating on best and final price, technology transfer and industrial offset will begin. This is where Dassault came unstuck in the UAE.

... is one of the most horrible non-words I have ever read. Shortlist perhaps?

"... is one of the most horrible non-words I have ever read. Shortlist perhaps? "


English is a beautiful language. One of its many advantages over, for example, French, is that it is still growing, developing and evolving. It is defined by use, not archaic rules over what is and isn't horrible.

pr00ne,

''No one has said that the Rafale is a better aircraft.''

i'm sorry, but when the Indians asked if the two aircraft could self-designate LGB's, or carry anti-ship missiles, or launch ALCM's - and the French said 'Je ne se quas! sure, here are the pictures', and EADS said 'err... yeah, it should be able to'.

and when the Indians made noises about needing a plan 'B' incase the MiG-29K buy wents tits up, and the French said 'Mangetout! don't worry, Rafale can do the business from a carrier, don't you worry about that', and the EADS team went 'err... lovely weather over here - must bring the wife'.

and when the Indians asked about a proven combat record and a proven history of integrating weapon systems and producing true multi-role capability, and the French said 'Zoot alores - these are pictures of Rafale over Afghanistan and Libya dropping death onto the beared ones/brave freedom fighters!', and the EADS team said 'well, err.. Meteor is going well...'

you don't think the Indians cocked an eyebrow and thought to themselves 'fcuking how long has this plane been in development? this bunch of jokers couldn't find their arse with both hands...'?

cokecan,

If that was the case then Typhoon would have never made the ultimate competitive downselect. It succeeded where many platforms failed. The competition wasn't for the variant currently being flown by any of the consortium members, it was for a version to enter development and production in 2015 with the 1st 18 to be manufactured by the winning company and the remainder of the order to be manufactured by HAL in India.

If Typhoon had been eliminated in the early stages then your argument would hold water. As it was it made it right through to the end and lost on price.

According to the Daily Politics show on BBC2 today (1 Feb), Mr Cameron says the deal isn't final yet. There's still an opportunity for BAe to revise their bid downwards.

There's still an opportunity for BAe to revise their bid downwards.

O dear!

I doubt it, he'll probably do it to his face on this one!

cokecan Vs Pr00ne
 

I must say I find cokecan's points persuasive because they are clearly based on well known facts.

A tad naive. I fear that any self respecting customer will always try and keep pressure on their 'chosen' supplier by suggesting there exists a credible alternative. The Indians could have used any of the original list for that but how much better to keep the Rafale team honest by choosing another European supplier with whom there was some history?

Given this is India all BAE really need to do is drag out those guys who were involved with the Saudi's a few decades ago.. India is one of the most corrupt nations on the face of the earth. This has less to do with technology and more to do with who has the biggest hospitality/brown paper/ Swiss account choc full of CHF budget.

Yeap, Rafale development has been long and expensive, first versions of Rafale 12 years ago were a little bit light, but now the latest versions (F3) have everything, so it's done... and beginning to sell !
No, Typhoon has never been sent to Afghanistan ? really ?

When being asked by the Americans in the 60s to scrap our high-tech fast jet industry, we didn't surrender...

Dassault obviously had a larger "Incidental Payments" fund available. That's what these big contracts work on

I can certainly vouch for the quality of lunch I had there a couple of years back.

Some words are growing like verrucas - I refer u 2 txt spek, and so forth.

Rheinhardt,


No, Typhoon has never been sent to Afghanistan ? really ?

When being asked by the Americans in the 60s to scrap our high-tech fast jet industry, we didn't surrender...

WHAT are you on about?


Willard Whyte,

Better get used to it, that's how language evolves!

The game is still in play, keep at it.:ok:

Please explain how the Americans asked the UK to "scrap" the industry.:confused:

Please explain how the Americans asked the UK to "scrap" the industry.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...s/confused.gif

I wish you hadn't said that.
It wont be long before someone mentions the letters and number T S R 2

I am sick of hearing from politicians that the UK has a world class aero industry, yet cannot afford to go it alone in aircraft production........Only for me to see apparently poorer nations build top rate aircraft such as Rafale:ugh:

Here, here , truer words where never spoken.
The UK still can redeem themselves, there still is a lot of knowledge and skill
to get fully back into the market, be it on their own or (fully re-)linked up with the German/French/Spanish Airbus-Eurocopter adventure.
But all of it can disappear after this generation in the next 20years, there are plenty of other nations that want to step into the UK's shoes.
This industry doesn't need to suffer the same faith as your former automotive industry.

PS; BAe's decision to sell their stake in Airbus was questionable bordering idiotic to say the least.

Sarkozy maybe being premature (again): UPDATE 1-Rafale deal offers scant gain for Sarkozy | Reuters

I don't think that going it alone was what helped the French. It was NOT going with the Germans.

Don't want to be rude, but the Germans have a history of throwing spanners into the works of any cooperative venture. If it's not the crazy specs they come up with (A400M), it's the industrial workshare games they play where they overestimate their purchase numbers. If it's not that, then it's their handwringing and delaying tactics (thanks to their parliament & coalition politics). If it's not that, it's their complete lack of interest in power projection and the related capabilities. They make the French look almost docile by comparison. :=

I happen to believe that a bi-national venture between the UK and France would have been a smashing success. It would have been carrier & cruise missile capable to begin with. And at least the French have a history of successful cooperation with Spain, Italy, the UK, and many of export partners (mixed in with a few failures of course).

I remember taking clients to the now defunct 3 Michelin * La Tante Claire on my employer's contingency fund. Tasty and we got the business!

Yes, I was about it to write the answer myself, but you were quicker - it was obviousky what I had in mind : TSR 2 (for the illiterate ones, there is Google, or excellent books on the subject)

It is by the way obvious that the Indians did prefer a deal with a single strong nation, not having to go through Bruxelles meetings for every topic...

And the Indians want an aircraft to go to WAR, quickly, thanks to their charming neighbours.... not like the brasilians or the swiss....

TSR 2 was cancelled over 45 years ago. It has gone, it was a 'might have been', but it's gone. Let's deal with the here and now, and not let this thread drift off down the same old routes.

Design, development, growth and manufacture of Rafale has benefited France, its' aviation industry and support industries. It has achieved more in terms of entry into service than Typhoon, has been subject to less Governmental interference than Typhoon and, I suspect will do the job it is bought for better than Typhoon can for the foreseeable future. I have long felt that partnership programmes have destroyed the British capacity to exploit its' intellectual capacity far more than any other factor and the French recognised that when they withdrew from ECA in the early 80s.

Ah yes, Belgium. A country famous only for beer, bureacracy and chocolate which exists primarily so that France and Germany can have somewhere to settle their differences without ruining each other's wine harvests. Where the locals converse in a strange expectorant language which makes even Welsh sound melodious....:uhoh:













No, of course I'm not being serious!

bloody good beer though

Granted - the choccy is nice too!

Edda van Heemstra Hepburn-Ruston (aka Audrey Hepburn)
Sylvie de Bie....:E



....and Jeanine Deckers, the 'Singing Nun' of 'Dominique' fame!

Famous Belgians
 

For a small country Belgium produced some of the greatest Locomotive engineers of the 19/20thC
Belpaire, Walschaerts and Lemaitre to name but 3!!

kbrockman

You forgot (perhaps) to mention the Brits in your European collaboration piece.

M' dear chap, the Rolls-Royce powerer Airbus A330s that I used to fly have more than 50% British content... and I'm Australian!