Photoplanet, there are scorch marks in this picture...
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/...84_634x383.jpg

The Mk10 bang seat jets were still grounded on Monday night so they must have found something serious or cannot fathom what happened.

iRaven

Local (lay) people reported hearing a very loud bang - which would suggest cartridge firing, would it not?

airsound

I've been following this since the accident happened. I maintained, fitted and removed, and occasionally flew in a number of Ejection Seat types whilst serving in the Royal Air Force: 4PB - Jet Provost 5A; 4H series - Hunter T-birds; 6MSB - Buccaneer. I also had knowledge of all Ejection Seat types through my role as Spares Forecasting Officer - Conventional Armament Systems - at CSDE. I also did the 10A - Tornado F3 Ejection Seat as part of the Tornado AD Wpns Q course as part of the FI prep; in the end I didn't go down south, but that's not relevant here.

B Word - thanks for posting that schematic; very useful.

Something that I don't believe has been mentioned is the phase of flight, i.e., was the aircraft on the ASP prior to engine start; post engine start, taxy for take-off, etc. This could have a bearing - fully admitted speculation on my part.

On the question of inadvertent initiation of the Rocket Pack, I asked the question regarding whether or not an Ejection Seat could go up the rails without the normal Primary/Secondary Cartridge initiation sequence having taken place. The consensus from Bay/Line Armourers, CSDE Wpn Spec Flt and a number of M-B engineers I spoke with was: maybe.

If the Seat Pan were to be positioned in its highest position - this being the most beneficial for maintenance access to the cockpit floor areas - there could be sufficient space available for the blast and reaction forces to be dissipated. Were the Seat Pan to be in its lowest position there could be sufficient reactive force from the rocket efflux acting on the base of the Seat Pan to overcome the Ejection Seat Top Latch - please note: the Top Latch is not "released" - thereby pushing the Ejection Seat up the Ejection Gun and Guide Rail Assembly. It would depend on the position of the Seat Pan, and whether or not the Ejection Seat was occupied at the time.

My thoughts are with Sean's family and friends, and the Red Arrows, especially the Armourers. RIP

My point was more geared to the fact that the rocket pack is a booster to supplement the energy from the gun. Being lanyard operated, the rockets are fired towards the top of the seat rail travel, not burning away right from the start. For a rocket only incident, I would expect much more heat and flame damage than seems visible in the photos. The discolouration on the right hand fuselage side may even be from the MDC initiator cartridge....

I'm not a professional pilot but this is a network and I have heard this rumour - "that the desicion on lifting the grounding of Hawk and Tornado is due at some point today".

Anyone else able to comment on that one please?

I agree...

Was the MDC initiated? Have to wait for the report(s), etc. Discolouration from MDC initiation would be evident around the canopy frame, would it not? The discolouration evident in the image "appears" to be from the Rocket Pack efflux. Is the discolouration evident in images showing the other side of the aircraft?

Truly amazing to see a public inquiry in action on the internet - and all from photos!

People will always speculate and theorise and let's not kid ourselves that any unfounded theories or assumptions based on photographs freely available in the public domain will affect the findings of any subsequent enquiry. The FACTS will be investigated and checked and the people involved in that process will no doubt examine the available photographs themselves anyway.

What they WON'T do is reach an evidential conclusion based on anything anyone on here may speculate about.

I sometimes wish this place would lighten up a bit and treat it for what it is - a forum.

Banging bang seats
 

I heard a hawk seat go off at RAE Bedford in about 82.

Pete had ejected v close to the ground

The sound was distinctive as abnormal and clearly an ejection but none of could say which part of the seat process we had heard

The gunfire and very short rocket burn are almost suncrinous

Often lay people make sense of what they have heard with words like bang, gun and rocket since their experience is limited

We should make due allowance for this in the witness comments describe above

Indeed, I was told a story by a member of the BoI into a Harrier mid-air about his going to interview an eye witness to the accident. The observer had indeed clearly seen one of the aircraft involved crash quite close to him and was able to describe the event in considerable detail. Unfortunately he was totally unaware of the "accident"!

YS

Yes, but allowing for the unreliability of eye- (or ear-) witnesses, my point about the 'loud bang' was that it would suggest that a cartridge had fired, either with or without a rocket. The rocket presumably makes a much more whooshy sound (technical term) - even to laypeople.

airsound

According to our local paper, a bit more factual that the DM, members of the Horncastle Rotary Club witnessed the incident. "We thought it was a firework going off."

They then went on to say the RAF confiscated cameras and memory cards.

More likely they requested to borrow cameras and memory cards.

The UTI was signed off this afternoon. Checks in progress.

What is a UTI? I assume it's not a urinary tract infection?

Urgent Techical Instruction

So what does it mean when the UTI is 'signed off'? Pardon me for being a bit dense here!

The UTI has no relevance to any discussion on here I am afraid ,you will perhaps understand reticence about posting technical information on a public forum.
But it must be fairly obvious that technical checks will be carried out on bang seat equipped a/c before they are allowed to fly.

rgds LR

The UTI is written, someone disagrees, rewritten, someone disagrees, rewritten etc etc... until finally, everyone agrees, and it is signed off. This process involved quite a large chain that includes various civilian companys and RAF risk holders.

Thanks for that - answers my question nicely, and without any reference to technical information, which I quite understand won't be posted (or shouldn't be) on here.

And then, after all the bunfighting, the UTI gets released on or about 1300 on a friday......