CHF - Merlin Mk 4
 

Just spotted in Hansard - appears to confirm that CHF are to get Merlin after all. Is the Mk 4 then still on course??

22 JUNE 2011 Column 41 W

Merlin Helicopters

Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence when the RAF Merlin Mark 3 will be transferred to the Royal Navy. [60876]

Mr Robathan: We intend to upgrade and transfer our current fleet of Merlin Mk 3/3a helicopters to the Royal Navy: the first upgraded helicopters will enter service with the Commando Helicopter Force in time to replace the Sea King Mk 4 helicopters, which are planned to be withdrawn from service in 2016.

I wonder if that means the Chinook buy has been given the green light?

Political obfuscation
 

I think the key word in Mr Robathan's statement is "intend"...

Sorry, what is the connection? I am not aware that SDSR linked the 2 events. SDSR told the RAF to handover the Merlins to the CHF - I presume this is all going ahead and the Junglies are filling the conversion courses at Benson? If this is not the case the RAF need to explain why not.

Or is this all part of the Torpy/Anderson "One Air Force" campaign - grow up.

Er, there is the small matter of the 36 odd RAF (inc RN and AAC exchange) Merlin crews that will need employment ie, if the Chinook order goes ahead then they retrain and assimilate said crews.
If it doesn't, then where do they go?? (and don't say tough luck or make them redundant as that is not a grown up option)

Pheasant,

At the risk of inviting a re-run of the of old arguements please read:

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...e-merlins.html

hopefully it will explain the comments.

SDSR did not tell the RAF to hand the Merlin to the navy, it stated quite clearly it's RAF SH requirements for Future Force 2020, which included 25 RAF operated Merlin helicopters along with puma 2, and the existing chinook strength, plus 14 extra.

It was FRWS (published prior to SDSR and a labour gvt strategy) that outlined the merlin transfer, along with a new buy of 24 (+2 attrition) chinooks to replace the Merlin. Since FRWS was binned some months ago, then I think that the door has still not closed on this issue.

Unchecked,

The statement in the RAF bit of the SDSR paper was incorrect and along with an incorrect statement by CAS shortly afterwards was corrected in the House of Commons. No linkage was made to the Chinook order. It is quite possible that RAF crews will be made redundant following the transfer of capability to the Junglies - life in a blue suit.

Let's just see what happens. I don't think it's over yet.

Ps, why is it down to the RAF to explain why junglies aren't filling the ocus?

Pheasant,
Perhaps you ought to read the thread as Chinook240 suggests..... It might give you a more rounded view of what the issues are for both Services. Throbbing away on this forum will get you precisely nowhere. JHC have the word 'Joint' in the title, not Navy or RAF. It would be politically unacceptable for Fox to reveal helicopter redundancies in either Service. The redundancies are coming (because there will be physically less platforms to fly) but they will be hidden. Prepare for compromise..........

Hi Spirits,

I have read the thread and stand by my comments. Why you think it politically unacceptable for Fox to announce helicopter redundancies I do not know...he has happily announced 17,000 others in SDSR. The time-frame for transfer is 2015/16 ie post Afghanistan, so no issue there.

Unchecked,

Quote:
Ps, why is it down to the RAF to explain why junglies aren't filling the ocus?
Because the RAF are refusing to allow the Junglies to join the OCUs! What's that about following a direct order?


We all know the RAF are petrified of 2018....why else would Project Trenchard be up and running?

That's mischief-making bullcrap and you know it.

The navy are going on the offensive on pprune. This must mean theyre about to lose another capability. You grow up.

Unchecked,

I am not in the Navy, so am not aware of their game-plan. My views on the RAF come from their behaviour, the nature of recent PQs, their performance at HCDC hearings and utterances of senior officers at things like Air Power conferences (and the views of more junior air officers who are fed up with the attitude of their bosses).

I do find it intriguing that the one document not revealed to the NAO on the recent carrier strike investigation was the record of the meeting between the then CDS (RAF) and the PM in the final seconds of SDSR re Harrier and Ark Royal when this was not the recommendation (according to the NAO) of the Defence Board....but this is thread drift.

Peasant

I didn't realise I needed your permission to post. I am very sorry, but as others have pointed out, the two events are connected [least of which is they both involve helicopters].

Som of your earlier posts on this thread seem to suggest you either misunderstood my post, or are a huge stroker of the phallus. Perhaps it is not me that needs to grow up?

Pot and kettle spring to mind there minidumb.

Nice insult though, but what does it say in the rules that I keep being reminded of? Oh yes that's it.

No offensive/abusive posts.
No swearing, sexually explicit or vulgar language.


Whoops, you broke both these rules. Perhaps a bit of editing is required.

Even before your post, I wondered whether you an Peasant were one in the same........

Pheasant,
A misunderstanding. Liam Fox flamed Labour over the shortage of helicopters. It would be unacceptable for him (and to him) to have to announce redundancies on 'his watch'.
As for the RAF refusing the RN onto the OCF; that is incorrect. The OCF have been running a lighter programme of late for reasons best not discussed on this forum. Find out why before you post factually incorrect comments.

Hi Spirits,

Fox is now the Minister, not in opposition. What he said before is irrelevant.

Simple question - how many Junglies in the OCF right now? All new crews in the OCF should be RN now in order that a smooth transition occurs - lighter programme or not.

Why does the CHF Junglies have to be replaced by the Merlin, can't they take the extra uplift of CH47?

They could be marinized at at the point of manufacture, would only need one crew conversion and would give the commando force the lift capability they have been looking for. Everyone's a winner.........

Pheasant,
There are no 'new crews' on the OCF at the moment..... Accusing the RAF of refusing RN crews onto the course is utter tosh.

It may be irrelevant to you ref Fox in opposition, but it is not irrelevant to any future headlines and accusations of hypocrisy. My point was simply that any redundancies due to fewer cockpits will be hidden in natural wastage as the changeover happens, if indeed it goes ahead as planned.

Could be the last? - Sensible, common sense suggestions like that clearly have no place on this particular thread.

Sure the new carrier could take CH47s easily.

Only one set of crews to retrain.

Merlin saved from extra weight penalty from folding head, tail etc....

Money saved all round.

Joint Force Chinook makes so much sense.... it will never happen.

Joint Force"***" would never work. In which Service would it reside? Who would get the command opportunities? How would career paths be managed? Would RAF or Army bods be prepared to follow a "Maritime Aviator" career path to 1/2* and vice versa?

If Joint Force Harrier hasn't killed off the concept of Joint Forces then something is seriously wrong with Defence senior strategists. Certainly for the new "Joint Forces Command" you can bet the Army interpret that as Army led, no discussion!

Perhaps all helos should be split between the Army and FAA, i.e. where the output lies. Someone explain why the RAF fly helos at all? Haven't I heard that somewhere before?

Pheasant - you are correct that JF Harrier was a bit of a disaster and most would admit that it was due to the RN's inability to keep up their end of the deal, in particualr supply half of the manpower. I think the RN have learnt their lesson - it almost led to the disappearance of the FAA and I don't think they will repeat it for JSF.

J Helicopter F, by contrast has worked out pretty well, despite the inevitable early frictions, with a Land focus but even some AAC types admitting that the RAF does some things pretty well!

Jointery really is the way ahead in many areas, although I agree that we have a hard job convincing the army that it isn't spelt A R M Y.

"supply half the Manpower"

Using who's Scheme of Complement - 800/801s or 3/IV Sqns? I was there for your first embarkation in CVS, many more people than we were used to for a Harrier Sqn; caused no end of problems for cabin allocation!

Pheasant,
I agree with you that 'joint' doesn't work all the time. There has been intense rivalry between the 3 services, especially regarding ownership of rotary, for many years, ney decades - I think that even I can work out which side of that particular fence you sit on. But, I could just as easily pose the question 'why have 2 services (Army and Navy) operate rotary when it could be done by one?'. I am, of course playing devils advocate there. I think the crux of the matter for the current regime will be cost - will it cost more to keep the Merlin Mk3 under light blue or transfer it to the army, where the output lies, or transfer it to the FAA? The cheapest option is likely to win the day (again). 'Joint' is often painful, but it does work in some areas!
The final outcome will cause pain somewhere.

B PLT

"and most would admit that it was due to the RN's inability to keep up their end of the deal, in particualr supply half of the manpower. I think the RN have learnt their lesson"


Wow.
What a statement.

Would the "most" referred to mean "those in light blue" by any chance?

Can I just say that as a Dark Blue aviator who may end up flying the Merlin4, I would like to completely dis-associate myself from the majority of comments suposedly supporting the Navy on this and similar threads.

The CHF knows exactly what it is like to feel under threat, and I am damn sure that many in the Merlin3 force are feeling the pain also at this moment. This whole Merlin debacle has been p**s poorly dealt with by senior officers, both light and dark blue, who have no idea what it is like to work in a truly joint environment.

It is the unfortunates in the CHF and Merlin force who are working side by side AT THIS VERY MOMENT on ops that have to deal with the uncertainty...

I can't read this drivel without commenting on those who make comment on 'joint this' or 'joint that blah'. The people who will be affected one way or another by the Merlin Transition (train smash?) are, ironically the very ones making jointery work now.

If CHF take the Merlin, or CH 47, how do they intend to man the rear crew element?

Will they continue in house selection/trg or will they put their guys through Shawbury? My understanding is that they take RMs in the main, will they be able to recruit the extra manpower. Will this set a precedent with regards to how 'light blue' try their Cmn? With a potential crossover of the fleet in the next 3 years, and the reduced number of OCUs how do they intend to get a cadre of rear crew established to have a credible FOC this decade?

Or are they looking to coerce the light blue Cmn to transfer across? :confused:

Talk split - well said. Based on my experience with being an outsider in a dark blue environment is that there isn't much difference between us. We enjoy what we do, we are on the whole proud of our individual service and we want to get the job done. IMHO the poison lays somewhere above SO1 level on both sides. My advice re' the Merlin transfer is be very careful what you wish for. Merlin Mk3 and frustration are words that go together well. The 'minor' upgrades to make it Mk4, if it proves affordable and the cash can be found, will not make a silk purse out of a pigs ear.

In what way was it a "bit of a disaster"? In the way that both RAF and RN Squadrons were able to provide front line support to operations in Afghanistan while still remaining engaged in various shipborne and land based exersizes outside of operations? Not sure that this can be claimed a disaster. The main problem that the RN became sadly obsessed with was manning of QFI posts on the Front Line, something the RN, in the SHAR days at least, did not require.

Twas much the same in the Harrier Force. Those who were actually in the force seemed to get on just fine and get on with the job. Jointery can work.

Talk Split - absolutely legendary post, you don't get more spot on than that. Can we all please just wait and see how this pans out, then try our hardest not to rub it in the faces of those who are ultimately going to lose the job they love doing over it ?

That, is also jointery.

OK, clearly some here not familiar with JFH.

The RN couldn't provide the necessary number of crews that had been agreed (50/50 split) to man the OCU and the sqns. Hence the collapse into a "NSW". It isn't contentious, just straight fact. The reasons why may be contentious and it would be interesting to hear from those involved why it was the case (not random idiots who have no idea what they are talking about).

The perception, which may be totally incorrect, is that the RN marginalised this aspect of the FAA while they were desperately trying to defend the surface fleet. Essentially they took their eye off the ball which they now realise was a huge mistake and are trying to scramble back. Unfortunately their reputation in terms of joint orgs and fixed wing flying has taken a pretty bad bashing.

Corrected as requested.

The Navy struggled to meet the manning component as traditionally on a SHAR Squadron there was a Boss, Senior Pilot and an AWI. In order to follow the RAF Squadron structure they now had to grow two extra Flight Commanders, have 1 - 2 QWIs (which take 2- 3 years to grow) and the obligatory QFI which again took a tour on the Harrier, a tour at Linton/Valley, and then 6 months to a year back on the Harrier before becoming C to I. That was per front line Squadron and then the OCU needed another 2 QWI and QFI. This is where the RN struggled to fill the posts as guess what, they hadn't been flying the GR for a long period of time. The RN focus on trying to make as many QFIs as possible led them to take their eye off the ball in terms of QWIs in my opinion.

And there it is.

Another perfectly good thread mutated into a harrier-war !

Talk Split,

Well said, sir. But in doing so you have hit the nail on the head. At Sqn level there isn't an issue (excepting the survival of the Junglies vs RAF equivs). At a more senior, policy level, the decision was made that the RAF Merlins would be passed to the RN and in the process, if affordable, converted to Mk 4 standard (effectively what the Italians have). It is the responsibility of those above Sqn level to enact that policy and it does not matter what the Sqns think and what their feelings are about their comrades in arms.

The deliverable required is embarked maritime effect (in this case primarily for the amphibious requirement delivered by the RMs) - a joint effect delivered by the RN. And before you say "what about the Apache?" - you may recall that the original intent was to have a maritime Sqn manned by the RN...I think the system is growing back that way through force majeure.

As with other aviation capabilities it is not just about the pilots (although the RAF tend to think in this way). It is also about growing maritime aviation experienced SO2s, SO1s and above to fill a variety of posts both at sea (Wings etc) and ashore in HQs and at TASs. This is as true for the RW side as it is for the FW (hence the RN's fixation with remaining in the FW game) - I honestly cannot see RAF officers and men volunteering to spend their career in the maritime domain (including the sea time for both flying and staff appointments).

It is not a one Service vs the other issue really, it is where the output and expertise growth is needed. If one wanted to be totally hard nosed (which I was in an earlier post) the RAF have no requirement to grow rotary wing aircrew as the expertise (at all levels) is needed for Army and RN outputs/effects. On the other hand in the FW world the RN do need to be involved as they need to deliver effect from the sea (Govt policy) and operate the host platforms (including maritime FW risk management) safely and at all levels - from Able Seaman to Admiral. The RAF do need to operate FW aircraft to deliver defence of the homeland, ISTAR etc and to grow air-minded battlestaff for joint HQs etc, but they do not need to own the whole show, which is what Project Trenchard is really about.

Pheasant,
That's the trouble with making policy, without any idea about how it will be implemented, with totally unrealistic timescales; and most importantly no money.

Unlike you, I don't begrudge anyone else's Service their slice of rotary. We are all good at what we do and rightfully proud of it. Mk6 chinook buy of 22 was inextricably linked to the move of Merlin to the RN, I heard it from the mouth of the RN 2 star Commander of JHC.

I know the aircraft well, and I have also flown helicopters off several RN and RFA platforms. I agree with the silk purse comment made earlier. I would sooner see the junglies get a cab that will work for them and the booties... But this is not it. I still note that you are unwilling to back up your earlier accusation re the OCF with any evidence. Any apology forthcoming??

Merlin Mk3 is technically advanced however it has issues, ie high basic weight which adding blade fold will not help in the slightest. The ramp is far too steep and has caused knee injuries to pax bussing and debussing at anything above walking pace. The engines are not that robust, the gearboxes are made of cheese and the airframe fizzes and thats before Mk3 has been near the seaside. I've been told that the FAA doesn't want it as its not the right aircraft for them however as CHF are fighting for survival they will accept anything remotely RW. As Talk split said its a train crash in the making and its no-one but the senior managements fault. The new 2* at JHC said only 3 weeks ago, Ck Mk6, Pu Mk2 and Mn Mk3 are all linked and all are at risk due to funding.

Hi Spirits & Neartheend,

Unfortunately the 2* at JHC does not make policy re linkages between helicopter types. He might try but in the end it will be decided above his head and probably at 4* VCDS level if not by the Defence Board. With the way the Defence Board is now configured i.e. with SofS in the chair, if he states in Parliament that the CHF will get the Merlins then he will probably ask why it is not happening.

HS, I still don't know how many Junglies are in the Merlin training pipeline....you seem to?

Pheseant,
I do, but am not willing to give numbers on a public forum. I do know who got priority to get through the course first. If you want to know, why don't you give the OCF a bell. At the same time ask how many instructors they have and how many aircraft they get to play with. Accuse away my friend, but find out the facts first. The facts might lead you to draw a very different conclusion as to how long this process will take...

Theres many reasons why you shouldn't put Junglies on the OCF yet? 1. Proposed Mk 4 cockpits will be different to the Mk3 so why train on what something thats different. 2. There are no spare 'cabin's at the Oxfordshire base and theres no T&S for hotels. Help yourselves to 12x12s if you wish. 3. Current ac availabilty isn't condusive to any type of training. 4. If Mk4 gets past intial and main gate, it will take 2 - 3 years from contract let before the first one gets to the MOD. Look at how long its taken to get Merlin Mk2 to flight trials and it still needs to go to QQ. 4. Why train now and suffer skill fade and the costs of associated re-training. As an alternative why not go to the South West where there is a far bigger fleet... oh yes they haven't got much in the way of ac availability either. Notice the theme forming?

Finally, no one said the 2* was making policy. His brief was on high level policy and command (political) intent which linked the CH47 and Pu Mk2's.