FB:

Like a lot of the Nu-Labia lot, Pr00ne chooses his stats carefully and selectively. Yes, 40Bn is the 4th largest defence budget in the world in absolute financial terms. If you express it as a proportion of GDP though (comes in about 1.7%, below the NATO mandated minimum of 2% IIRC) if you express it compared to the proportion of GDP of other nations, particularly the emerging nations and what it pays for, the value of sterling related to the currencies of the other nations you're comparing it to, what it gives them, what the costs are, then the picture becomes a bit different.

What you spend, compared to what you get, to what capability it gives you are different things. If we are spending that much but not getting as much for our money as the US, China, India, whoever, then it means we are either wasting too much, paying too much, salaries/allowances too high, defence inflation, etc etc etc and that others are getting it cheaper in larger volumes, if larger volumes is what is needed. Those are all things that should possibly be occupying DC's mind more when it comes to aping his hero Blair on the world stage rather than just thinking intervention anywhere anytime is always a done deal and that the forces will always cope no matter how thin they may be spread, no matter how resources and assets may be thinned out.

Whilst the world has changed a lot in the last 80 years, I find it staggering that the lessons of the 1920's and 30's seem to have been brushed aside and consigned to the bin of ignorance with such ease and in such haste. If the reductions are deliberate, to the point where we should be non-interventionist on the global stage, thats fine, but going in the direction we are doing yet keeping 4 SSBN's with a CASD policy seems dreadfully unbalanced. Not to mention that there may well be events in the future that we are going to have to be compelled to respond to that we are not going to have the means to respond to. Giving over West Midlands car factories to make bombs, bullets and Spitfires as per WW2 and just about getting to the point where we had the numbers and the personnel to be able to achieve what we did is a feat I dont think we're going to be able to repeat, if ever. Lets just hope that such a thing never occurs in the future, eh? But I'd sincerely hope that whoever does our strategic planning and vision for the next 30 years or so relies on a lot more than just "hope".

Lies, damned lies and statistics, as the old saying goes.

Golly... You've been telling us all for years how well off you are and how you've got it made... Don't worry, I'm sure you can get a job to supplement that pension... :\

DC is hooped whatever he does with this matter, if he gives credence to the "we will never manage" suggestion what message does that send to Libya and if he chooses to react as he has then it's ding ding all aboard the outrage bus.

I have had more than enough bollockings in my day to fully understand that it's rarely about punishing the individual, it's almost always about getting the message out as to where the line in the sand is drawn.

I doubt there were many junior and senior folk who thought once we became involved in Libya how on earth would we manage with everything else were are involved in at the moment but it seems we are coping and I doubt that's going to change as it's simply what we do.

The beauty of not cutting and running the first time things get a bit scary is that the long term rewards, whilst having taken a hit recently are still more than sufficient. Get a job, I think not but my recently renewed second passport is definitely going to come in handy :p

Don't worry about me... I'm far, far better off now than I would have been had I stayed in... Without all the grief and BS too... and I filled up my passport... :ok:

I am genuinely pleased for you, I really am.

I guess the main difference between us is I will have 38 and a half years of wonderful memories to look back on whilst, based on the frequency of your visits to this Military site you will go to your maker always wondering what might have been :ok:

Military Aircrew A forum for the professionals who fly the non-civilian hardware, and the backroom boys and girls without whom nothing would leave the ground. Army, Navy and Airforces of the World, all equally welcome here.

As of Nov next year I will not satisfy the rule for contributing in this forum so will not continue to do so :ok:

Depending on where we are on the planet and the availability of the net I genuinely don't know if I would peek or not, but I do know I won't be posting :ok:

SFFP:

The real difference between us is that I got what I needed from the military in 10 years and moved on to better things... I come back because, as you will find, the people out here are... err... "different"... You will find that you will miss the people but most probably not the job. If polled, I'll guarantee you that a significant majority of those who have left would concur. Maybe you are different... But that makes you odd, not me...;)

There was a very well written article in today's Times by Mathew Parris, about senior officers who have more interest in preserving their service than the defense needs of the nation. They should stay out of politics!

I read that piece. What is your opinion on the assertion that our Senior Staff are no good at actually running a war/conflict/police action ?

What did it say - for the benefit of non Times readers/subscribers?

WEBF - see post 19 on the Akrotiri thread for the Mathew Parris article.....

BBC News/Website Monday 27th June.....

"....For the members of 101 Squadron, while their aircraft may be getting on, there is still no sign of mission fatigue - at least not yet. The Navigator and detachment commander, Cat, says: 'I love the job I'm doing and I love the aircraft.'

She says it is rewarding to do a mission they been trained to do.
By the time she has finished punching the numbers into her pink calculator to work out how much fuel they can give away while making sure they have enough to return back to base."

I can think of more than a few Nav Plotters from the original Marham Valiant/Victor K Mk 1 days.... originators and pioneers of many AAR directional techniques.... whose growlometer reading will be off scale if they catch sight of this pish drivel.

Marham69 wrote: What a wonderfully apt Weegie word that is.

For all the undoubted magnificence associated with the English Language, there are times, now and then, when the use of "appropriate" words fails to convey the deepest sense of the moment.

I look forward to a better description of this article, but I suspect that none will be forthcoming.

A. A.
 

Yep, that's got my vote.

Mr Cameron/Dr Fox

You spoke, I'm off! - LJ

One found this quite amusing, the link on Dr Fox's website that links you to the MOD site for "ask a Minister"

Ministry of Defence | Contact us | Ask a Minister


It Says and I quote

Cameron got where is by being good at what he does ...

A self made man, up from a Dickensian childhood ...

Marham 69

You do seem to have a grievance that the Modern RAF has Female Aircrew - as shown by your posts on a previous thread regarding 32 Sqn.

May I suggest that you detail exactly what medals you earned during your time in the "Near East Strike Force" whilst a navigator on 32 Sqn Canberras- then we can compare them with the medals that the young Men and Women of today have earned on Active Service in the last few years.

Oh no! Not another medal-waving debate :ugh:

Oh goodie! A medal fest!

I have some aready-prepared and offensive remarks I can post about crimson-faced old buffers in their blazers down at the Legion....


Jindabyne...only joking:p

PS - got another one in the post last week, too. Another round one, sadly.

Medals
 

Jindy

The "Gentleman" concerned is on record as stating that 32 Sqn becoming "The Royal Sqn" is (quote) "An Abomination".

He maintains that the current role of the Squadron "denigrates" the history of the Squadron as it has no role on Active service.

Medals are not a good marker for an individual's resolve. If that were so we wouldn't be so reliant on conflicts to provide the opportunity to award them. It was once envisaged that when the last of senior officers who served in World War II and the Korean Conflict retired, we'd see a none stop line of senior officers with no rows of medals. Perhaps because the defence posture of the late 1980s was expected to last.

Instead we have no end of small unwinable conflicts selected by politicians like Blair and Cameron who absurdly dismantle the frontline capability and rent everything they're prepared to allow. Its quite absurd to cut the frontline while wilfully engaging in conflicts with countries that Blair and Cameron mistakenly imagine to be a push over. All home in time for tea and medals, but it hasn't worked that way.

I know which generation of servicemen and women were better served.

FB:)

For Friend Cazatou....

If you wish to deliberately provoke a barney then take your adolescent goading elsewhere.

This is supposed to be a debate about the Prime Minister's comment, 'You do the fighting, I'll do the talking.'

As we've all gone massively off topic, I don't mind sharing with you a memory of red-faced old buffers in blazers to whom Whenurhappy has referred.

Northern Ireland, Aldergrove to be precise. 1993. Once a year the Bomber Association would have a lunch at the Mess in Aldergrove. A large number of small, respectful, white-haired, blazer-wearing old chaps would turn up for lunch. Ulstermen to a man. Many 'How are you?'s were exchanged. They were all bomber mates from the war. They told stories that made us realize that humping and dumping in helicopters was not exactly steely. They were like a bunch of excited 70 year old school kids, devouring the black and white pictures of NI-based Sunderlands on the corridors in the Mess. Once we'd all got chatting, we all realized that these blokes were all serious veterans of the bomber campaign. Hilariously, there was one fighter pilot amongst them, at whom much banter was directed on account of the fact he lacked 'people skills' hence the single seat. It was a pleasure to talk to them. While we were desperate for their war stories (and by golly they had a few), they were always reticent and modest about what they had done.

They are probably all dead now. But I shall never forget the sight of those old guys, delighted to be at the bar again, talking to 20-somethings about flying and ****.

As the Frogs say, plus ca change.

Perhaps if you were a USAF Airman you would have 10 medal ribbons. If you were a USAF/Marine senior officer you would have at least 30 ribbons. The yanks hand out medals like wedding confetti.

My Grandfather managed just one Military Cross & a Distinguished Conduct Medal (DCM) during WW1. My father (Master Pilot with more than 10,000 hours on Lancasters, Shakletons etc.) got just a LSGC.

I got bugger all until I went to Bosnia after I left HM's employment after 16 years. I was employed by the FO, shot at, blown up & abused by both Bosnian Muslims & Serb/Croats. They gave me a (very impressive) silver medal set - but alas, no pension....

I think the Americans AND the Brits have got it wrong when it comes to dishing out gongs. There is such a thing as a happy medium.

Yes indeedy, and here he is....

The Daily Mash - Stars

Different medal culture, one is more inclined to award medals for passing through places and doing stuff - I always used to think "who on Earth would want a unit citation?" Figuring it's a bit like being given a certificate for having the lowest STD rate in theatre or something of equal merit - but to the people concerned it's much more of a big deal, everything is relative, and to be honest I'm not sure that having a chestful of 'best origami sculpture' awards isn't likely to imbue a feeling of pride in people.... would the traditional bag of ***** airman perhaps not be a bit more tidy and presentable (I was that man) given the incentive?

It's when we start to associate medals with bravery that it all goes wrong - like the man said, 'sadly only a round one'.

Medals
 

Look what you get in next years Christmas crackers: LargeImageTemplate

We used to say that in the US armed forces, even the civvy cleaners had stripes and medals.

Marham 69

Its just that I am quite proud of of the 5023 days I served as a VIP Pilot on 32 Squadron.

"My Grandfather managed just one Military Cross & a Distinguished Conduct Medal (DCM) during WW1."


"Just"???? :eek:

Fraid not. He served during the Boer War as a Corporal in the 5th Dragoon Guards. He got 6 further medals, one of them with 5 (Five) bars. Hey Ho...

Nobody gives a poo nowadays. But I do.

He then finished his army career as an instructor at the Cavalry School at Netheravon, Wilts until he retired July 1922 (RSM Harry Croft, MC, DCM, Vth Dragoon Guards).

Doris Stokes was always quite jolly; indeed, she could be described as a 'happy Medium'.........

HB

I got a GSM for NI lol, but that was when having a medal in the RAF was rare, pain in the butt it was, because after leaving Odious every best blue inspection for any parades afterwards they would put you on it, simply to add a bit of shiney tin to the ranks... Often felt embarassed (and still do) to have it, as the Army worked bloody hard in dangerous situations to get theirs..

Pity, because you shouldn't.

Nutloose, bad luck with the blues inspection. I don't know what uniform the RAF have now, but back in the 70/80's we could wear either a wooly pully, or the horrible No.2 jacket. After the little incident in 82, at Kinloss there was a sudden outbreak of wearing the No.2. jacket, as it had the medal ribbon on it. As you say back in those days, a medal was a rare thing in the RAF, and thus almost certainly got you volunteered for AOC's, and any other parade on the go. I was never into the parade thing, so kept a low profile on that front. Due to a fair bit of moving about, I never got to wear my No.1.'s that often, and it wasn't until 3 months before I left the RAF in 1985, that I had my No. 1's inspected, and my WO was surprised that I had a medal. The only time I nearly got caught was in 1982. Because of the war, Kinloss's AOC's parade was put back, and two weeks after that the station was to receive the Wilkinson Sword, or the other way about. My WO decided that myself and my mate had avoided parades for to long and we were doing one each. I had some leave which covered the first parade, so I said I'd do the second one. The CO at Kinloss was so impressed with how the first parade went, that all the same personnel were to do the second one. Bullet dodged on that one.