Hope 2011 RAF Leuchars Air Show is safe at least
 

Hope 2011 RAF Leuchars Air Show is safe at least

Life would be dull just relegated to the comparatively tame East Fortune show.

Wasn't Fort George given to the National Trust in the early 1960s?

Glad Rag,

You post a suggestion that the public sector (of which the armed forces are part) and then in support you post an a part of a BBC article on private sector outsourcing???

The two things are only very tenuously related. Public sector outsourcing to the private sector (which is already a massive industry) is just one means of achieving cuts, but is politically sensitive because it is seen to replace public sector jobs with private sector profit (in my eyes, a very good thing). Hence the soft shoe shuffle by Cameron (a sign of weakness).

To support your argument you need to post an article that suggests that the public sectors cuts are being scaled back, except for defence related cuts which are being scaled up.

Good luck with that.

PS Not a tory, nor a labour. I can't stand politics or politicians of any flavour.

Think you are all missing the point.

Now Salmond and his lot are in power with a majority the whole way of looking at this needs to change.

The SNP are committed to spending minimal amounts on defence (in effect creating a defence force not available for overseas deployment on anything other than "peacekeeping" duties and then only for short periods) and are also commited to withdrawing from NATO (I have this from the horses mouth as I know Angus Robertson their defence spokesman unfortunately for me).

So bases need to close, would you keep them open in Scotland where in all likelyhood in a few years you will need to close them and relocate everything south of the border? personally im surprised they are talking of moving the army in.

Lets face it the SNP are in a win win situation they are jumping up and down screaming about base closures (which they will do anyway) should they close they will shout "London dont care about Scotland etc etc etc" if they keep the bases open "we beat London - they dance to the tartan tune"

Interesting times ahead.

The SNP "policy" on Defence is, in effect, to have only Eire style Defence Forces. In fact Eire was one possible Model for the Scottish Economy too until the Celtic Tiger went pfutt!

From a practical point of view the SNP now has a problem! Scotland has thousands of workers at various Air Force, Army and Naval Establishments as well as a key role in buiding the aircraft carriers and future frigates which would only be put at risk by them talking up the need for a Referendum. The SNP has no intention of doing this and will instead seek more devolved powers in certain areas, for example some aspects of Taxation. Keep an eye on the Scotland Bill passing through Westminster!

Spectacular growth in the SNP vote, if reflected in a Westminster Election, (it never has) might suggest moving Trident to the Thames but I would not get too excited at the prospect yet.:E

Salmond is one of the brightest and politically astute politicians we have. He knows exactly how to play the Westminster playground. However......

The Catch 22 here is that Scotland, to keep employment, local economies surviving, etc etc, requires the bases to be protected. Their (SNP)defense manifesto, states minimal defense. A problem.

We also know that these bases, within reason, can be anywhere on the UK mainland. We also know that we appear to have too many UK bases, as per the review. A problem.

Add in the mix the ''coalition'', and frankly you have one almighty mess, which will come as no surprise to anyone.:\

Salmond from the Scottish perspective will have to play this one very carefully, as will Cameron, and something will have to give. My view is that the good old compromise may surface, where nothing happens, except doubt and uncertainty, until the cards fall, and that may take some time.

@ pr00ne.

You are completely right that Defence took a smaller hit in the Comprehensive Spending Review but a little bit of context is appropriate. Defence has had little growth in its real budget in the last 20 years and the growth it has had has not kept pace with inflation in Defence costs. Consequently there have been cuts in every Planning Round as far back as I can remember. By contrast both Health and Education have benefitted from very significant expansion in their budgets - much of which has not translated into increased output; take a look at the budgets of Defence, Education, Health and Social Services in 1989 and take another look at them in 2010 to see the point. The output of the Armed Forces has undeniably increased very significantly over the last 20 years but we are now at the point where resources and commitments don't match.

There is plenty which could still be done to cut costs but the areas to look at are the business costs imposed by Government in the form of 'red tape'. This is an area which has undeniably expanded massively especially over the last decade and could be radically cut back. The answer then is to take another look at what is important and what is not - and stop doing that which we can't afford any more. If the government were cutting costs in that way - there would I think be some logic to the cuts, and they might even be welcomed. Instead we are focussed on cutting the means of output without actually cutting the commitment (indeed our commitments just got bigger, again). It is here that criticism should lie.

I'd like Glad-rag to explain the 530 local government redundancies in my local council over the next 3 years, and the reduction of the Connexions service from 36 people to 7 last month? Figment of my imagination I suppose. Along with the reduction in my education job to term time only in September (an immediate reduction of 14% in my salary) I'm probably making it up as I am Tory Boy or something... Tool.

Just for clarity....

If the argument is that the government is not doing enough to reign in the excessives of our bloated, inefficient and wasteful public sector (all of it), I completely agree.

If the argument is that the government is (relatively) favouring health, education etc at the expense of defence, I completely disagree.

@Benjaminw1
 

I think the important bit is the timescale as you statedI believe that the reductions are still to happen?

Go read the Telegraph article again.

It does give the apperance of a U turn and it's now all about staying in power not "doing the right thing".

Close all the bases in Scotland? That's a vote winner - NOT.

Salmond is a yap o' ****e - he would risk 1000's of Scots becoming unemployed and millions of pounds removed from local economies? I doubt it somehow. He's riding high on a tartan wave right now, and so can get away with the current nationalistic posturing, but he best tread very carefully over the subject of base closures. Witness the recent marches by residents of Lossiemouth against the threatened closure - multiply that by all the folk working on the bases and the locals 'supporting' the bases across Scotland...

I suspect if he has a referendum on leaving the Union he might be as disappointed as the LibDems were with the Yes To AV vote...

:hmm:Go on then, I'll bite. Explain your concerns.

"Explain your concerns."

Well to do University Town (William and Kate et al) and the home of golf plus a few thousand squaddies in town each weekend = potential issue for Ming the Mighty as sitting Liberal MP:E

!

Utter BS. Salisbury, a well-to-do Cathedral City has done alright with a few thousand squaddies (and crabs) right next door for a few centuries now (well Army anyway).

If one thinks that airmen make better neighbours than soldiers, one only has to look as far as Carterton for a shining example of how untrue that is.

It may well be a Cathedral City Roadster, but it is as you say, a long established Garrison town. The character of St. Andrews though, is still far more likely to have a hefty culture chock visited on it. I understand the inhabitants around Abingdon and Oxford weren't too happy about the Army moving into Abingdon (Dalton Barracks), whether their fears were unfounded is entirely possible I'm sure. But the Army by nature employs a lot more young men, who by nature of the kind of service environment and culture they are brought up in, means at the very least, local perceptions aside, there will be an increased likelihood of larger groups of young men with "attitude" shall we say, looking for a good time on Friday and Saturday night. No doubt St. Andrews would cop its share of young soldiers thronging into Ma Belles and the West Port, just looking for a good time chatting up the young students. When I was stationed at Gatow (although just one particular regiment) the Black Watch billeted a hundred yards or two down the road at Montgomery Barracks were banned from entering the R.A.F. Station, by the Station Commander. This was following an incident involving a knife being pulled at the Naafi Disco one night. Then there was another incident in which a Sergeant from my own unit, charged a small gang from said Regiment who were drunk on the Bus returning from a night out, they allegedly had been making luid remarks to a young girl on the Bus. She was the Group Captain's Daughter. However, upon arrival at Monty Barracks, said Sergeant, Gerry Flanagan, got a culture shock of his own when he saw how the Guardroom RMPs/RPs dealt with the matter in short order. I think he ended up feeling sorry for them afterwards and wishing he'd said nothing on that score alone.:eek:

FB:)

Ahh Leuchars, St Andrews, Cupar (ok, cut Cupar out) nice peacefull places, spent a happy 3 years at Leuchars with DCRE.

The chicken was nice on the bbq btw... once it was de-feathered, as to how it got there? Anyway I degress from the matter in hand.

Stick a few regiments of Squaddies in Leuchars? No probs, I wouldnt worry about it, the place will be as peacefull as ever. For about a week that is, month max by then all the kit will have been put away...

Meantime recces to find what pubs/clubs the local 'attractions' use will have been done and dusted. And the old beer token pot topped up in the bank ready....

Then, one not so quiet Friday night.... mayhem will spread :E Life will never be quite the same again as the area slowly transforms into.... the Scottish version of Aldershot :eek:

There is one good thing though... Todays squaddie is nothing like the beast inflicted on the local populations back in the late 70's through to the 90's.

Todays squaddie is much more civilised, come to that, you could almost describe them as being partly house trained....

And their is ALWAYS the Irish question. Would the good people of NE Fife be understanding of going from Medium to High? from "over the water"

Oh did I say Irish? Sorry wrong decade or so.

SACC | Special Branch Terror Unit

or not.:confused:

As a one time member of the Royal Engineers, stationed at Ripon, Yorkshire, among other places, I think you may find that some of the locals may not appreciate the lads letting their hair down at the weekends but all is forgiven, on a regular basis, when the lousy weather comes and we were able to rebuild roads, bridges etc. get fodder to animals, pull stuck vehicles out of snow drifts, get stranded people to safety, get sick people to hospital etc. etc. etc.

A regiment of Royal Engineers and a regiment of Army Air Corps would probably brighten the place up a bit and give it some class!:)

Is that now a problem for the Fife coast area is it? How've they cope til now?

FB:)

Not a lot has changed since Kipling's day.

You mean like Doncaster and Rotherham. In fact in the former probably since Roman times.

Finningley Boy - Where were you based in the UK and were so embarrassed by your Army colleagues?

My greater experience of the Army was in Germany and Belize, and no I wasn't embarrassed by them personally. Indeed, the ones from the Royal Signals and R.A.O.C. for the most part, whom I worked with and lived alongside down at Birkenfeld in Germany were a fantastic bunch. I was at one point thinking of transferring over. But when out in Belize and in Wes Berlin, as I've pointed out earlier, the behaviour of the Infantry, shall we say, and for the reasons given, young lads embued with a tribal mentality, may well make a noticeable difference to the atmosphere in certain parts of the country, you've read the story about the Black Watch. That said, they had a particular reputation, even among Scottish Regiments.

I used to get plenty of stories from the army chums at Birkenfeld, who like us from the R.A.F. regarded Birkenfeld as a holiday away from it all. We were all under the U.K. Support Unit at Ramstein AB, billeted at Neubrucke and later at Birkenfeld and the actual place of work was the Comcen and various EACs and Ops Cells at the NATO Central Region Static War Headquarters. It was without a shadow of a doubt, the best tour I ever had and none the less so for the Army being there. But I learnt something from them and at first hand about the line units shall we say. Not that it worried me in particular but regarding Leuchars, to be perfectly honest, there probably are only subjective arguments for it remaining an R.A.F. Station. That said the arguments for moving everything up to Lossiemouth and moving the Army in there are not built around any clear military thinking, or I imagine this would have been part and parcel of the SDSR or arranged many years ago. The question about moving the R.A.F. from Leuchars surfaced only last October, and then only because of the reaction of the Lossiemouth community that they could experience a double economic blow from the additional closure of Lossiemouth as well as Kinloss. If the Army are moving back from Germany in the future, then what is the argument against them moving into Lossiemouth and Kinloss, considering the greater availability of infrastructure and being on the doorstep of a more realistic training ground. Also, the economic argument is solved. But now the problem has grown tentacles and people have gotten tunnel visioned thinking that the R.A.F. must remain at Lossiemouth at all costs, hence Leuchars is unnecessarily dragged into the debate.:suspect:

FB:)

Thanks Finningly Boy, very understandable that the RAF wouldn't want to lose Leuchars. If the Army have to move north what would be so wrong with them going to either Lossie or Kinloss, I agree, but as for working out the logic, that, as our American friends would say, is way above my pay grade!

Our family regiment is the Black Watch! The bit in blue under my ID is their motto from the cap badge! They can be a bit high spirited at times;)

A "hanger" is for clothes, a "hangar" is for aeroplanes.

I was hoping we would pull out of Scotland completely. It's miles away and the Scots hate us. So why do we stay?

As a Jockshireman who lives in Ingurland all I can say is three cheers for the act of Union!:ok:

FB:)

Torygraph: Defence shake-up means our smallest Army since the Boer War

The reorganisation will see the Army shrink to its smallest size since the Boer War, while Britain’s reserve forces will benefit from a £1.5 billion investment programme........

In a separate development it is understood that RAF Leuchars is to close, leaving only one RAF airbase in Scotland. The site will become an Army barracks.

The Sunday Telegraph understands that the Ministry of Defence has secured extra funding from the Treasury in the next spending round, after 2013, of £1.5 billion to pay for the overhaul of the reserve forces as well as more funding for the equipment programme. The extra cash will pay for 14 Chinooks, which are due to come into service after 2014, three new Rivet surveillance aircraft and upgrades to the Army fleet of ageing Warrior armoured vehicles.........

The closure of RAF Leuchars will leave Scotland with just one functioning RAF base at Lossiemouth, currently home to a Tornado GR4 Squadron. The new barracks at the Leuchars site will house thousands of soldiers due to be withdrawn from Germany in the next few years. The decision to transfer the two typhoon squadrons currently based at Leuchars to RAF Lossiemouth was only finalised last Friday, although rumours of the move had been circulating for months.

It will also be announced that RAF Marham in Norfolk — another Tornado base — will remain open, primarily because it is the only Tornado servicing facility.

Ah well, there goes the neighbourhood.....:{

Quote:
RAF Leuchars is to close....................The site will become an Army barracks.

A good friend of mine, who is a lawyer specialising in court martial work, is based in Tayside and gets a fair number of "clients" from the RAF at Leuchars. The prospect of the army taking over has him rubbing his hands with glee.

"£1.5 billion to pay for the overhaul of the reserve forces as well as more funding for the equipment programme. The extra cash will pay for 14 Chinooks, which are due to come into service after 2014, three new Rivet surveillance aircraft and upgrades to the Army fleet of ageing Warrior armoured vehicles"

Must be a car boot sale somewhere, that is a lot of kit for that money.

A simple question; can anyone explain why we are buying aircraft to survey Rivets?:ugh:

Because you can survey them quicker (and therefore more of them in the same time) than if you had to walk :ok:

So are we getting cuts post-2015 or increases? Mike Smith in the Sunday Times today says Osborne has refused to a 2% increase in resources after 2015. But then he goes on to say that the Cabinet has said we can have a 2% increase in the equipment budget but not in anything else. As ever my brain is clearly not large enough to comprehend how you can increase the number of platforms you buy but not the air and ground crew you need to fly them.

E P-T,

I think that the answer is that the equipment programme is so far short of balance that a 2% increase can be absorbed easily [and will still fail to provide the] kit for a smaller force.

S41

The answer could also be in the Torygraph article through the proposed use of cheaper reserve forces to do some of the other "stuff" that our manpower do. Thus you will now have the manpower to do the core air power business of flying aircraft.

iRaven

Sadly George hasn't comprehended it either! I suppose a pay rise will be out of the question?

Leuchars loses fight to be RAF's home in Scotland - Scotsman.com Heritage & Culture

Surely all the GR4s can not be squeezed into Marham, even if 1/2 the force is away on ops?

Will some stay at Lossie or will more GR4 Sqns get the chop?

TR

I know which I would guess at post 'Stan & Libya :*