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And the Pakis didn't see them on their radar ..... LO chinooks???? |
rh200
The link is a few posts above yours. Re the "you ever heard of a silent chinook?" They could have been following a few minutes behind. |
Crab,
I get the whole 'compound is just made for recirculation' angle. However, the helicopter had just flown a significant distance and therefore burned petrol. Even with a running takeoff on departure the hover performance would not have been an issue even in recirc. Unless they had refuelled enroute of course. That just leaves vortex ring. Either way as you said, if they screwed up the perf calculation that's a bit dull. |
The country is virtually at war - there's a real war in the country next door .....they are at daggers drawn with India ..."and the radar on that side of the country wasn't turned on..."
Oh come on - really does anyone believe this ....really! |
Sasless - no crystal ball, just the official sources quoted in FA18's post. If what they (including the director of the CIA) say is correct then someone didn't cover all the bases in their pre-flight planning - usually SF ops are planned meticulously, as far as possible, and predicting recirculation from such a LS is not rocket science.
High spirits - if the op was launched from Tarbela Dam they didn't have far to fly and even so, 12 heavily armed SEALs is still a hefty payload. I have fallen out of the sky flying into a similar sized and equally high walled (albeit wriggly tin) LS and landed much harder than intended - not hot, high or particularly heavy - just caught out by the massive power requirement to hover when the whole disc is experiencing recirculation. |
There are good landings and great landings. Good ones you survive. Great ones you can use the aircraft again.
Fact: we don't know if there was mechanical failure or not. Fact: Mission Success Fact: They all survived All of the above = Good Landing Fact: it is a rumour network, so speculation is OK I guess. I heard that they externally loaded in an old blackhawk with a "figure this one out China, Tail Boom", dropped it on the wall, then set in on fire to give us something to natter about. |
Oi Doors off
"I heard that they externally loaded in an old blackhawk with a "figure this one out China, Tail Boom", dropped it on the wall, then set in on fire to give us something to natter about." Get your own conspiracy theory, or pay me royalties! |
Tourist,
sorry old chap. Didn't realise you had raised something along those lines, or maybe I am Chinese and just reversed engineered your theory:E I guess mine won't work as well, but it still looks possible. A big part of me hopes that it is a wind up, it would be great if it is. Who said the Yanks don't have a sense of humour:rolleyes: Maybe it was the British exchange pilots idea:} Doors Off |
President Obama Interview on CBS 60 Minutes
Link to CBS 60 Minutes interview with President Obama on planning & execution of UBL raid (full episode on line) shown in the USA last night. Worth a look - some interesting details.
Watch 60 Minutes on CBS.com. Full Episodes, Clips and Behind the Scenes footage. |
I am not quite as indifferent as most seem to be in this discussion, regarding what may have been a mission planning issue, or a technique gaff during the mission. :confused:
Compromise of classified tech isn't a good thing. Crashing it to be exploited isn't good at all. :sad: While I am glad Osama got his taste of high speed lead, and the Pakistanis are embarassed (which I see as a good thing), I am not pleased that the "stealth" features are somewhat out in the open. "We had our radars turned off." Why not? It's not as if Afghanistan has any strike aircraft heading south anytime soon, and it could have been assumed that the Yanks were not a hostile air threat. Hmm, they may revisit that assumption again, as they used to when they scrambled fighters against tankers over Afghanistan a few years back ... :p Whoops ... |
Originally Posted by Lonewolf 50
Compromise of classified tech isn't a good thing. Crashing it to be exploited isn't good at all. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...y_dog_eyes.gif While I am glad Osama got his taste of high speed lead, and the Pakistanis are embarassed (which I see as a good thing), I am not pleased that the "stealth" features are somewhat out in the open.
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secret USA technology used in raid
Apparently the yanks have new intelligent spy-drones known as Crows & Ravens
Could Crows Have Helped Bring Down Bin Laden? · OPB News |
Would appear German TV in it's haste to find the badge for Seal Team 6 found one and then ran it with the news.....
German TV: 'Star Trek' terrorists killed bin Laden | Technically Incorrect - CNET News So it is official 'Star Trek' terrorists killed bin Laden, the badge they found and used was one for the Marquis, the bad guys on the Star Trek TV series Voyager. Unfortunately, in its haste to offer a SEAL logo, someone at the station actually mustered the logo of the "Star Trek" Maquis Special Operations Seals Team VI--a bunch of nasty little 24th century terrorists. |
Fair point, hoodie.
That Seal Team Six is being so glibly discussed in the media is yet another case of OPSEC violations in the name of glory mongering, this time by someone in the executive branch/DoD. (I doubt the SEAL Team Six folks are glory mongers, it's the mukky muks up high in DoD who too often play that card ...) Most of the SEALS I ever met or worked with were low key, completely not Hollywood types, and not attention grabbers. Same with other SOF folks I had the chance to work with. As the joke used to go, Delta Force doesn't exist ... but if you mention them, expect a visit in the late night by some quiet and deadly folk wearing NVG's. :} Well, I'm not keen for our "cloak and dagger" folks to be outed. Anyone read "Feather Men" recently? |
""We had our radars turned off."
Why not? It's not as if Afghanistan has any strike aircraft heading south anytime soon, and it could have been assumed that the Yanks were not a hostile air threat." No, but what about India ? Anything stopping them flying around and coming in from the Afghan side ? . |
Besides the fact that the USAF (and ISAF/NATO) still has radar coverage over Afghan airspace? US might advise the Indians "no funny stuff, if you please" and would be in a position to stop them if it got really nasty.
I don't see your scenario as realistic, 500N. |
I understand that. What is ISAF /NATO were not there ?
Afghan would still not be a threat but the door might be open to a surprise back door attack. Either way, I suppose I just always look for the least obvious route. |
I see what you're saying, 500N. When the outsiders eventually wander off, what sort of EW and air surveillance radar capability will Afghanistan maintain?
Good question. |
DISCOVERY CHANNEL SPECIAL
Killing Bin Laden One-Hour Special Premieres Sunday, May 15 at 10PM ET/PT Due to air in the UK on Wednesday. TJ |
The remains of the destroyed helicopter have been recovered to US soil. The US 'required' Pakistan to return the wreckage - seems a lot of trouble to go to for just a burnt out UH60, unless it was heavily modified!
BBC News - Pakistan returns helicopter used in Bin Laden operation |
Did the bits return by way of a Chinese model factory?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...628poster1.jpg |
Media report
Herewith a cut and paste media extract.
'AP sources: Raiders knew mission a one-shot deal WASHINGTON (AP) — Those who planned the secret mission to get Osama bin Laden in Pakistan knew it was a one-shot deal, and it nearly went terribly wrong. The U.S. deliberately hid the operation from Pakistan, and predicted that national outrage over the breach of Pakistani sovereignty would make it impossible to try again if the raid on bin Laden's suspected redoubt came up dry. Once the raiders reached their target, things started to go awry almost immediately, officials briefed on the operation said. Adding exclusive new details to the account of the assault on bin Laden's hideout, officials described just how the SEAL raiders loudly ditched a foundering helicopter right outside bin Laden's door, ruining the plan for a surprise assault. That forced them to abandon plans to run a squeeze play on bin Laden — simultaneously entering the house stealthily from the roof and the ground floor. Instead, they busted into the ground floor and began a floor-by-floor storming of the house, working up to the top level where they had assumed bin Laden — if he was in the house — would be. They were right. The raiders came face-to-face with bin Laden in a hallway outside his bedroom, and three of the Americans stormed in after him, U.S. officials briefed on the operation told The Associated Press. The officials spoke on condition of anonymity to describe a classified operation. U.S. officials believe Pakistani intelligence continues to support militants who attack U.S. troops in Afghanistan, and actively undermine U.S. intelligence operations to go after al-Qaida inside Pakistan. The level of distrust is such that keeping Pakistan in the dark was a major factor in planning the raid, and led to using the high-tech but sometimes unpredictable helicopter technology that nearly unhinged the mission. Pakistan's government has since condemned the action, and threatened to open fire if U.S. forces enter again. On Monday, the two partners attempted to patch up relations, agreeing to pursue high-value targets jointly. The decision to launch on that particular moonless night in May came largely because too many American officials had been briefed on the plan. U.S. officials feared if it leaked to the press, bin Laden would disappear for another decade. U.S. special operations forces have made approximately four forays into Pakistani territory since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, though this one, some 90 miles inside Pakistan, was unlike any other, the officials say. The job was given to a SEAL Team 6 unit, just back from Afghanistan, one official said. This elite branch of SEALs had been hunting bin Laden in eastern Afghanistan since 2001. Five aircraft flew from Jalalabad, Afghanistan, with three school-bus-size Chinook helicopters landing in a deserted area roughly two-thirds of the way to bin Laden's compound in the Pakistani city of Abbottabad, two of the officials explained. Aboard two Black Hawk helicopters were 23 SEALs, an interpreter and a tracking dog named Cairo. Nineteen SEALs would enter the compound, and three of them would find bin Laden, one official said, providing the exact numbers for the first time. Aboard the Chinooks were two dozen more SEALs, as backup. The Black Hawks were specially engineered to muffle the tail rotor and engine sound, two officials said. The added weight of the stealth technology meant cargo was calculated to the ounce, with weather factored in. The night of the mission, it was hotter than expected. The Black Hawks were to drop the SEALs and depart in less than two minutes, in hopes locals would assume they were Pakistani aircraft visiting the nearby military academy. One Black Hawk was to hover above the compound, with SEALs sliding down ropes into the open courtyard. The second was to hover above the roof to drop SEALs there, then land more SEALs outside — plus an interpreter and the dog, who would track anyone who tried to escape and to alert SEALs to any approaching Pakistani security forces. If troops appeared, the plan was to hunker down in the compound, avoiding armed confrontation with the Pakistanis while officials in Washington negotiated their passage out. The two SEAL teams inside would work toward each other, in a simultaneous attack from above and below, their weapons silenced, guaranteeing surprise, one of the officials said. They would have stormed the building in a matter of minutes, as they'd done time and again in two training models of the compound. The plan unraveled as the first helicopter tried to hover over the compound. The Black Hawk skittered around uncontrollably in the heat-thinned air, forcing the pilot to land. As he did, the tail and rotor got caught on one of the compound's 12-foot walls. The pilot quickly buried the aircraft's nose in the dirt to keep it from tipping over, and the SEALs clambered out into an outer courtyard. The other aircraft did not even attempt hovering, landing its SEALs outside the compound. Now, the raiders were outside, and they'd lost the element of surprise. They had trained for this, and started blowing their way in with explosives, through walls and doors, working their way up the three-level house from the bottom. They had to blow their way through barriers at each stair landing, firing back, as one of the men in the house fired at them. They shot three men as well as one woman, whom U.S. officials have said lunged at the SEALs. Small knots of children were on every level, including the balcony of bin Laden's room. As three of the SEALs reached the top of the steps on the third floor, they saw bin Laden standing at the end of the hall. The Americans recognized him instantly, the officials said. Bin Laden also saw them, dimly outlined in the dark house, and ducked into his room. The three SEALs assumed he was going for a weapon, and one by one they rushed after him through the door, one official described. Two women were in front of bin Laden, yelling and trying to protect him, two officials said. The first SEAL grabbed the two women and shoved them away, fearing they might be wearing suicide bomb vests, they said. The SEAL behind him opened fire at bin Laden, putting one bullet in his chest, and one in his head. It was over in a matter of seconds. Back at the White House Situation Room, word was relayed that bin Laden had been found, signaled by the code word "Geronimo." That was not bin Laden's code name, but rather a representation of the letter "G." Each step of the mission was labeled alphabetically, and "Geronimo" meant that the raiders had reached step "G," the killing or capture of bin Laden, two officials said. As the SEALs began photographing the body for identification, the raiders found an AK-47 rifle and a Russian-made Makarov pistol on a shelf by the door they'd just run through. Bin Laden hadn't touched them. They were among a handful of weapons that were removed to be inventoried. It took approximately 15 minutes to reach bin Laden, one official said. The next 23 or so were spent blowing up the broken chopper, after rounding up nine women and 18 children to get them out of range of the blast. One of the waiting Chinooks flew in to pick up bin Laden's body, the raiders from the broken aircraft and the weapons, documents and other materials seized at the site. The helicopters flew back to Bagram Air Base in Afghanistan, and the body was flown to a waiting U.S. Navy ship for bin Laden's burial at sea, ensuring no shrine would spring up around his grave. When the SEAL team met President Barack Obama, he did not ask who shot bin Laden. He simply thanked each member of the team, two officials said. In a few weeks, the team that killed bin Laden will go back to training, and in a couple months, back to work overseas. Copyright © 2011 The Associated Press.' |
Adding exclusive new details to the account of the assault on bin Laden's hideout, officials described just how the SEAL raiders loudly ditched a foundering helicopter right outside bin Laden's door, ruining the plan for a surprise assault. That forced them to abandon plans to run a squeeze play on bin Laden — simultaneously entering the house stealthily from the roof and the ground floor. Instead, they busted into the ground floor and began a floor-by-floor storming of the house, working up to the top level where they had assumed bin Laden — if he was in the house — would be. They were right. |
.S. Senator John Kerry announced that Pakistan has agreed to return the tail of a stealth U.S. Black Hawk helicopter that American commandos had to destroy and leave behind in the raid that killed Osama bin Laden. This was during the senator’s meeting with Pakistani officials. Pakistani officials had expressed their interest on studying the remains of the U.S.’s secret stealth-modified Black Hawk helicopter abandoned during the Navy SEAL raid of Osama bin Laden’s compound, and suggested the Chinese are as well. The U.S. has already asked the Pakistanis for the UH-60 helicopter wreckage back, but one Pakistani official told ABC News the Chinese were also “very interested” in seeing the remains. One of the Black Hawks flown by an elite Army unit called Task Force 160 – which carried the Navy SEAL commandos – lost lift and was forced into a hard landing at Osama bin Laden’s compound in Abbotabad. The pilot nudged the UH-60 Black Hawk forward into a controlled crash – saving the mission from disaster, but sheering off the helicopter’s tail section, CBS News national security correspondent David Martin reported. Bill Sweetman, Editor in Chief for Defense Technology for Aviation Week, told “The Early Show” that some unusual features were spotted in the wreckage, including special materials covering the tail rotor hub to reduce the helicopter’s radar signature, and extra rotor blades to make it quieter. “At a range of a couple hundred feet even, if you’ve got a bit of urban background noise, you’re not going to hear it,” said Sweetman. Source: CBS News Pakistan agrees to return stealth Black Hawk parts |
I can't say I'm convinced that the tail left behind was from some heavily modified Blackhawk variant. If it was it seems to be so heavily modified one wonders how it would be asimilated onto the existing airframe.
I haven't even attempted to scale it but it also looks much larger than anything from a Blackhawk. |
Google Image's your friend - Silent Hawk.
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Hmm. I'm not sure I'm ready to don a tin foil hat just yet but I'm afraid the fact someone has cobbled together what is, admittedly a very nice and plausible picture, isn't proof of this strange hybrid to me.
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I can't say I'm convinced that the tail left behind was from some heavily modified Blackhawk variant. If it was it seems to be so heavily modified one wonders how it would be asimilated onto the existing airframe. I haven't even attempted to scale it but it also looks much larger than anything from a Blackhawk. |
extra rotor blades to make it quieter. |
Hmm. I'm not sure I'm ready to don a tin foil hat just yet but I'm afraid the fact someone has cobbled together what is, admittedly a very nice and plausible picture, isn't proof of this strange hybrid to me. The picture was out there long before the OBL raid and subsequent images of the wreckage, coupled with the fact that the US 'required' Pakistan to return the wreckage (of an ordinary UH60, would they really bother about it, if it were not 'modified') You don't believe that the US would develop aircraft in secret and manage to keep it secret for such a long time. Nighthawk ring any bells? Please enlighten me of your reasons for your doubt of the aircraft's existence and what type helicopter the wreckage came from, otherwise my tin foil hat is staying firmly in place. |
Google Image's your friend - Silent Hawk. |
Siggie,
You seem to have entirely the wrong end of the stick. I don't doubt the helicopter was there. After all the evidence is there to see. I don't think the US would be desperate to have a UH60 recovered either. I simply don't see any evidence other than a few speculative drawings, that the aircraft in question was anything from the Blackhawk family, heavily modified or otherwise. |
The plot thickens :)
Stealth Black Hawk « The Aviationist As in the other side of the Med :) Stealth Yanshuf: the Israeli top secret radar-evading chopper used to drop spies in Iran « The Aviationist Arguably (its a bit late now), if what exists could have been revealed at Farnborough, the show would have been a real showstopper :) Cheers |
There was an article in Aviation Leak or Fright at the time that suggested the 'Stealth hawk' was not classified, as it used existing techologies, but the SO people had just kept it carefully hidden.
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Tin foil hats at the ready:
Is This a Super-Secret Stealth Helicopter … Or a Hollywood Fake? http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/da...ed-660x495.jpg (Movie link here) I/C |
Already covered here http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...film-prop.html
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All in house according to Shephard defence Helicopter 1999 article
I recall a Shephard Press Defence Helicopter article published in early 2000, inbterviewing 160th SOAR. There was a large paragraph stating that the Nightstalkers do all any mods all in house. Maybe one could park it in the open on the flightline amongst other MH-60K/M and I'm guessing the average allied air/ ground crews couldnt even walk near a restricted area so all they would see is a ramp full of H-60.
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Bit of coincidence here - I read this thread last week, thought nothing more about it and then last night, as I was climbing into bed, what should fly over the house but a pair of very strange sounding helis. I'm out in the sticks just to the north of Grafham Water and get regular overflights of Chinooks, Pumas, Merlins MH53s etc, so am used to the sound of rotors. I missed the first one but was hanging out of the window as the second one came from behind the house and saw it fly away to the south west in the direction of Kimbolton. It was dark so only saw a single red strobe but what struck me as odd was the sound. It was quiet, very quiet by helicopter standards and it was not your normal 'chop chop' sound but more of a whooshing, like a fan. The thing was somewhere around 500 ft I would say and it was going at a fair rate of knots - disappeared from view and out of earshot in a very short time.
Wonder what they were.... |
I guess your neighbours have a mil h pad according to my charts :) Hopefully not anywhere near the old GLCM bunker and launch tower on the base :)
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Interesting update in article
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