From Joint Force Maritime Component Commanders Odyssey Dawn Public Affairs

USS KEARSARGE, At Sea (NNS) -- U.S. Navy EA-18G Growlers from coalition bases and U.S. Marine Corps AV-8B Harriers aboard USS Kearsarge (LHD 3) launched March 20, in support of Operation Odyssey Dawn, to enforce U.N. Security Council Resolution (UNSCR) 1973, which is centered on protecting Libyan citizens from further harm.

The Growlers provided electronic warfare support over Libya while Harriers from the 26th Marine Expeditionary Unit (MEU) conducted strikes against Muammar Gaddafi's ground forces and air defenses, joining an international effort to halt an offensive against the Libyan populace.

"Protecting the innocent and conducting combined operations are what we are designed to do," said Col. Mark J. Desens, commanding officer of 26th MEU. "Our forces are doing both as part of the U.S. commitment to protect Libyan citizens."

I know the rebellions aren't going well in these countries but thats no way to describe them. One usually uses an apostrophe.

Finally, the real reason the yanks were reluctant to commit to the action in Libya - they're saving themselves for the big one.

That'll never catch on. The whole naval aviation concept is just a conspiracy to scupper the RAF/land-based aircraft, don't you know :E

Nope, it is part of an overall capability, a cog in the wheel, a piece of the jigsaw. Not an end in itself. No-one is denying that it has capabilities, but it has huge limitations too. When will you lot stop it, I'm getting bored. :zzz:

I thought it was "El Alamein" the first time I heard it. Bizarrely it kind of made sense.

For this particular operation, land-based aircraft have proved sufficient. Yes, if there'd been a UK carrier with an air group of FA2s and a few GR9s and if it had happened to be in the right place at the right time, it might have helped.....

So the carrier / Harrier argument is irrelevant for this particular scenario.

But next time, there might not be a suitable land base close enough. Would that be sufficient reason to resurrect the Harrier force? I would say no - unless that force were to include the FA2. Otherwise it would probably be an expensive luxury which simply couldn't be justified.

Pity though.

The Harrier/CVS argument is pretty much irrelevant for this scenario. However, if it comes to mounting continuous CAP for any sustained period, I suspect the carrier element of it (CdG or Big E) may be far more important.

FYI Malta is a neutral country, humanitarian activities supported very strongly (as demonstrated recently), but not military action.

This is an insulting statement and the equivalent of saying many Brits are pally with Libya, because of the actions of HMG and the oil companies. Of course, the UK never saw Libya as a fruitful trading partner, did it?

I don't recall Malta releasing a convicted terrorist and I do remember Malta impounding 2 Mirages, even though many Maltese citizens were still awaiting evacuation and could have been held as hostages.

From a Brit living in Malta.

Libya Question
 

Apparently combat aircraft from about a dozen different countries are enroute to Libya. Will they have the comms gear to talk to each other? And if the rebels and the Colonels mob are using the same aircraft does that mean engagements BVR are out of the question? How do you tell a good MIG from a bad one, or is it as simple as telling the rebels to park their aircraft....

Just curious, thanks.

Octane

I have been astonished at the number of posts on this and other threads that have assumed HNS would be available at Malta. Others posts suggest that we can also simply insert Special Forces into Libya to identify targets when fighting is close to the population we are mandated to protect.

It was a diplomatic success to have Resolution 1973 passed. It was not a mandate for Regime change or to eliminate the Colonel and quite specifically ruled out troops on the ground. We need to be careful not to believe otherwise. We must carry the wider world community on this issue. The mixed messages from the Arab League and dissaproval from both India and Russia on the scale of the initial strikes should be worrying our leaders:uhoh:

Where in the UN's charter does it mention it has the right to assasinate a head of state? This feels more and more like an attack on his regime, not an enhanced no-fly zone aimed at stabilising the situation in the country.

Look forward to them getting more engaged then .... particularly the Arab League. If they don't like the 'short sharp shock' treatment, and think they could do better, then perhaps we should stand aside and let them get on with it instead.

Or perhaps not.

All talk and no action.

Edited to add, having just seen dead pans post : If media reporting is to be believed the attacks are dismantling the very system being used against the civilians/rebels i.e the army and air force. Command and control is part of that system. Have they targetted other non-military government buildings as yet (which may indicate a more 'regime removal' scenario)?

We targeted a "suspected command centre" (or words to that effect) last night. The fact it was in Gaddafi's palace complex was purely coincidental. Seriously though, we're going to have to do a lot better than this if we are to keep our wavering allies on side.

Intriguing that the American B2 crews fired but the Tornado boys did not - did the order come too late, or a different take on what they were seeing? I assume the civilians were the same ones I spotted outside the palace on the BBC news last night...

If they don't like the 'short sharp shock' treatment, and think they could do better, then perhaps we should stand aside and let them get on with it instead.

Given the make up of most Arab States you would hardly expect a collective response other than to prefer action that protected the civilian population from harm.

Perhaps it's us in the liberal and Democratic West who have the problem. We could not stand aside watching on TV as Colonel Gadaffi used his Armed Forces to "put down a rebellion" or "stop the will of his people being expressed".

Is Libya just another Arab State where the citizens want change? Unlike Tunisia and Egypt where the push for this came from the young unemployed and a growing number of well educated but still unemployed people, where has it emerged from in Libya? It is richer country thanks to oil and judging from the need for migrant workers, poverty and lack of economic opportunity was not such an issue.

I hope the use of Air Power alone to intervene under a UN Mandate has a positive impact but we have no idea if it will. If Gadaffi is toppled by his people we then have no idea what form of Government we might then get in Libya. But then is that our business anyway:hmm:

Or different targets?

The Bab al-Aziza complex ( 32°52′30″N 13°10′30″E) is 6 square km in size and contains many buildings including one of Gaddafi's palaces, an army barracks and the now destroyed command centre.

On Saturday night the B2s used their stealth to put a large payload of dumb bombs onto a Libyan military airfield whilst the RAF used Storm Shadow cruise missiles for precision attacks which were probably, judging by the priorities on Saturday night, air defence resources.

On Sunday night the emphasis seemed to switch to command and control targets for the precision attacks. Presumably Global Hawk or some other reconnaissance means spotted the civilians so the Tornados aborted. For the B2s there are still airfields for their dumb bomb sorties.

There is this strange story going round that one of Gaddafi's sons may be killed:

On March 20, 2011, it was reported by Al Manara Media that Khamis al-Gaddafi had died from his injuries sustained when Muhammad Mokhtar Osman allegedly crashed his plane into Bab al-Azizia. However, this had not been confirmed by any other independent media. The crashing of the plane itself had also not been previously reported or confirmed by any other independent media except Al Manara.

Malta
 

A long time ago, Dom Mintoff was very pally with Gadaffi and Libya [after he kicked the British out in 78[?]. That has long since migrated to a curious combination of 'independence' and 'the Chinese are our good friends'.

Things move on, although when I visited Malta in 09 I'm sure I recognised some of the pot-holes from my last visit in around 83 :p

Good to see that a joint RN/RAF op is being media-briefed by an Army PR man. I'm all for 'Joint' but...... :ugh:

Liked his mention of "RAF Norfolk."

A few pointers on the resolution to answer recent posts.

Please remember our FO have been working very hard on the wording, and also the other diplomats know what it means, no matter what they are saying to the 'soundbite' media

The resolution forbids occupation forces. This does not include SAS etc in laser designation or other non-occupation roles.

The NFZ is only point 6. Point 4 allows ANY action short of occupation to protect civilians. This would include killing the guy giving the orders, i.e. Qaddaffi. Currently this is being deemed politically unwise, but it is allowed (arguably) by the resolution.

Effectively the resolution allows almost anything. Whether certain actions are wise or not is another question.

To be fair he's not wrong. Apart from a minor RRH in the north of the county all that is left of the RAF in Norfolk is Marham. Be thankful he didn't call it RAF Sandringham ;)

dead_pan,

Apparently the decision was taken to abort the Tornado mission due to the fact that media were broadcasting live from the compound.

BREAKING Sky Sources: Tornado strike on gaddafi compound last night called off because CNN journalist was broadcasting live from the scene

Libya Live: UN Security Council approves no-fly zone - Telegraph

TJ

TEEEJ
 

If that turns out to be true, I hope MoD sends them the bill for the fuel.

I believe in freedom of the Press, but they really ought to STFU and keep to the hotel when there's an air campaign going on.

Hold on! One source says they were interviewing civilians, and had they not been they may well have been targeted. Could be CNN are owed a thank you?

draken
The people fighting for Colonal Muhamar are also Libyan citizens ... ;) So how does that fit into this UNSC authorization, I wonder? (His various African mercs aside ...)
Concur.
Wrathmonk
Aye.
That is the same term as "the Arab League" isn't it? ;)
Yep, that is more likely. Well said, that whole post.
With certain assets I used to work with, you don't see a SAS team, nor any sort of SoF team, to do that l-wording stuff on targets. It's been near a decade, and I think that capability has proliferated. ;) No further comment.
Aye, the remit is rather broad, but How Does One Define Civilian, or Libyan Citizen, in this case? The two terms are mixed and matched quite a bit in the UNSCRs. (A more detailed UNSCR critique in my JB inputs ...)
Indeed. As usual, it's a mess. When all of the things stop blowing up, the finger pointing and pissing contests will become World Class for a few weeks.

Darned politicians, could screw up a wet dream.

(I've made a more detailed critique in JB thread regarding this topic, I see this is more of an operationally oriented thread.)

For MPN11:

I agree, in my heart, but the media are part of the environment, whether we like it or not. :mad:

Cows Get Bigger

Fear not: at the latest Monastery briefing the good Major General was escorted by AOC 2 Gp and a RN Captain to help him with geography and difficult words;)

Sky News breaking news rolling headlines late last night referred to 'The ****e House' - only corrected after several minutes. Mis-keying or mischief I wonder?

Re aborted GR4 sortie ... Fox News just reporting that a CNN crew were invited to the compound to view results, which led to the cnx mission. Smart move by The Duck.

I think the Meeja might learn from the consequences ... [please].

Tonight's Fox coverage is basically a picture of a bare tree, viewed from their hotel room, which had some AAA in the background a while back. :ooh:

Hope Sky got youtubed

A question from civilian side of aviation: why coalition needed to use B2s from its US homebase? Does it have any unique capabilities necessary for the mission in question or it is rather a demonstration of expensive technologies?

A 25-hrs mission to a country which air defence level is somewhere on a border between 2nd and 3rd world countries, with targets located just on the border of 100% secured Mediterrianian airspace?

Independence was in 1964.

The last British forces withdrew in 1979.

Malta is a fully integrated EU member, Schenhgen signatory and a modern democracy.

I wish little Englanders like you would stop talking bollocks, but seeing as your personal title is "In the past, because it's nicer", you probably think that the UK is the centre of the world and little ex colonies could not possibly get their act together :ugh:

Cargo One

"why coalition needed to use B2s from its US homebase?"

And stand off submarine and Tornado launched cruise missiles. The continued use of such weapons could well raise great concern and put at risk UN support particulary from the Arab World and those in the Security Council who chose to abstain from Resolution 1973.

However, we do now seem to be in the position to operate the NFZ without such attacks.

CargoOne: War is not played on a level playing field. The B-2 offers amazing stealth together with very precision weapons.

Mintoff was ok..he used to wave to us as we waited for the school bus in Marsaxlokk, as he swept by in his convoy of cars full of bodyguards!:p

Of course, you chaps would have been at the front of the queue to conduct SEAD missions, using direct line-of-sight weapons from a non-stealth platform, just to satisfy a small bunch of hand-wringers at home, I suppose? Bear in mind that the early French missions were conducted around Benghazi, where the air defences are presumably under rebel control.

Meanwhile, it looks like the IADS-denial phase is drawing to a close...

MoD stating that Typhoon has flown its first combat missions over Libya - congrats chaps! Shame there's nothing left to shoot though...

Link (Telegraph Live at 21:03)

The statement also says that Tornado GR4s landed at Gioia after Monday's mission; the Telegraph's photo below shows a GR4 departing Marham loaded with a Litening pod, 2 x PW4 and a Brimstone launcher (ie the same fit as used on HERRICK) with 2250l tanks and an ECM pod.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/multimedi...2_1853482c.jpg

TBM

This is action to enforce a UN Resolution by protecting the civilian population of a country from its own leaders and armed forces.

Having degraded Libyan AD we don't need the B-2 or much of the other really hi-tech stuff used initially. Doing so just runs the risk that our response is seen by some as being out of proportion and so could risk the continued political consensus needed to get this job done.