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From guardian.co.uk: 12.21am: A message on Libyan state television says the Libyan government had decided to end efforts to stop illegal immigration into Europe, citing a security source. ... Gadaffi thinks he's let loose his ultimate weapon, but he's wrong, 'cuz all enlightened Europeans welcome more diversity. It's pervasive! |
Good luck to all involved.
I hope the suits have a plan. The 'easy' bit is the initial air strikes, cue puffed up grinning leaders briefing the press on how great they are. The 'bad' guys will try every trick in the book to confuse the issue and collateral damage (real or staged) would be a gift for Islamic fundamentalist’s accross the world, more fuel for the fire? What option does Gaddafi have? If he doesn't have any then he can only stay and fight. If he goes who will fill the void? Or will we end up destabilising the region. In reality they might end up just killing each other over a longer period, the rebels will hate us for not doing more and Gaddafi supporters for intervening at all! Lets just hope it's over before they announce the redundancies :rolleyes: |
Pol Potty Mouth,
I see you're new to the forum - a hearty welcome. Firstly, I don't think you'll find many (any) on this forum who don't support the sailors and airmen involved in the operations last night. This isn't really a forum for posting a bunch of 'well dones'; most don't need to receive platitudes in an open forum such as this although the occasional nicety is pleasant enough. Instead of referring to folks as blinkered fools, maybe if you raise it up a notch you can see that most are mourning the loss of flexibility the UK has in deploying and sustaining operations. The same comments about the carrier (no matter how much people believe it would have been of no value) will be said about MPA and ASTOR (on death row) as we move into embargo and NFZ ops. It's not about the carrier in isolation, it's about the issue that we now only have the ability to mount land based fixed wing air ops as opposed to inherent flexibility you have if a choice is available. FB11 |
B2 bombers are making non-stop round trips from the US.
food for thought: the VLS planned for Daring T45 destroyers are not compatible with Tomahawks missiles |
Its up for discussion now on Nicky Campbell's ' Big Question'..
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A 3000 nm round trip. A great bit of political Grandstanding but completely impractical as a long term solution. What is wrong with Sigonella or Souda Bay?
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the VLS planned for Daring T45 destroyers are not compatible with Tomahawks missiles Have a read of this, re Naval Scalp. Storm Shadow - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia |
Quote:
Now that the UK, US and France have reacted to Gaddaffi people will begin asking why we did not respond to Mugabe or even the riots in Egypt that have argueably sparked the current turmoil. HellMan says..... Oh brother, here we go again! They say ignorance is bliss but please prunes .. do 5 mins research before posting! Let me say this loud and clear as someone with 15 years in US government service with .. how shall I put this .. let's just say 'priviledged access to certain information': The regimes in Morocco, Tunisia, Egypt, Yemen, Bahrain and Saudi cannot be compared with that of Gadaffi, to understand this read: The Real Gadaffi HM Oh, so nothing to do with oil then:rolleyes: |
Oh, so nothing to do with oil then In the scheme of things, Libya not selling oil is far more damaging to it's economy than it is to ours. And don't confuse any forthcoming profiteering at the petrol pumps with the impact of Libyan oil missing from the market. |
IIRC Libya provides a provides a lot of Italy's oil also remember this
"The release of the Lockerbie bomber from prison would liberate Britain’s largest industrial company from a string of problems hampering its $900 million (£546 million) Libyan gas projects, industry sources claimed last night.BP, the oil giant, signed a deal with Libya in 2007 to explore for gas in the west of the country and offshore." Al-Megrahi’s release ‘would free BP’ to join the rush for Libya’s oil - Times Online |
A 3000 nm round trip. A great bit of political Grandstanding but completely impractical as a long term solution. What is wrong with Sigonella or Souda Bay? Any word on the USMC Harriers?:) |
My guess on why we opted on a 3,000 mile round trip is not due to the lack of forward base options but because we are so over-stretched and under-resourced that we don't anymore have the AT (air transport/logistic) "tail" to forward deploy any offensive air assets.:ugh:
OK as a one-off mission I suppose, but hardly sustainable long term. Another example of military options being sacrificed as a result of SDR. MB |
Round trip expediency
I wonder if the round trip from Markham was to provide a quicker response than maybe would have been possible by forward deploying with all the necessary support required. Not much point going to another base if you haven't got a load of Stormshadows with you and somewhere to store them etc. Maybe this gives some breathing space to get that lot set up, the AT fleet must be stretched to the limit as it is without having to start a (relatively) no notice deployment to the Med. Having said that, if you only want to launch a limited number in the first (SAD) phase this is an efficient way to do it. The follow up NFZ piece I assume would be done by Typhoon based 'locally' and is probably easier to support.
Niff naff question, does anyone know how one climbs in and out of a Rafale if there is no nice big ladder available?!! Doesn't look as if the kick in F4 type step would would work, there's a heck of an overhang! Is there a drop out internal ladder? |
US Harriers in action
CNN have reported that Marine Harriers carried out ground attack operations overnight.
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My guess on why we opted on a 3,000 mile round trip is not due to the lack of forward base options but because we are so over-stretched and under-resourced that we don't anymore have the AT (air transport/logistic) "tail" to forward deploy any offensive air assets I think that apart from those 'who needed to know' both the TLAM and StormShadow attacks, in terms of response time to the passing of the resoloution, will have taken most people by surprise (particularly in terms of the speed of the air response - who knows how long the sub has been parked off the Libyan coast;)). The EDP is reporting at least 3 jets. So thats the 4 sqn cdrs, stn cdr and OC Ops with a seat then....!:ok: |
Were these missions the first bombing raids to be launched from the UK since 1945? I know there was the Torrey Canyon, but that was target practice rather than offensive ops.
Fly safe all involved. Your professionalism is an example to everyone. |
The US raids on Tripoli in 1986 were launched from the UK. They had to go the long way round as France, Italy and Spain denied overflights.
Bettino Craxi, the Italian Prime Minister at the time, gave Libya two days warning of the raids, allowing Gaddaffi to ensure he was safe. Operation El Dorado Canyon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia |
Easy Street deserves a prize for logic and an RP appointment for... ;) Well said my friend :D
"...Imagine if this had kicked off a few weeks later - perhaps post-PR11? We would have had no Nimrod R1, possibly fewer VC10s, possibly no GR4s beyond those committed to the HERRICK cycle, possibly no Typhoons due to lack of F3 cover at home, no HMS Cumberland... I guess my point is that if we are going to retain this level of capability to perform forced interventions outside of the direct national interest, we need to state it in the National Security Strategy; after all, human rights abuses by dictators are far more common than many of the other threats listed therein. This would affect the priority applied to the relevant capabilities in our defence reviews - and would enable the appropriate arms to be funded accordingly" |
The EDP is reporting at least 3 jets. So thats the 4 sqn cdrs, stn cdr and OC Ops with a seat then....! |
food for thought: the VLS planned for Daring T45 destroyers are not compatible with Tomahawks missiles No willy waving between the RN and RAF on this one.:ok: http://www.defpro.com/data/gfx/news/...cbf7ab_big.jpg |
I'm sure OC Admin will get in on the act Also it's amazing how far the noise of a GR4 landing travels (even with min thrust reverse) in the middle of the night!!:ok: |
6 Norwegian F-16AMs are leaving for Sigonella tomorrow according to the RNoAF.
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If you look at your world atlas the best place to base for Air Support for the Benghazi area is Souda or Iraklion. Are the Greeks on board for this OP?
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Note to all beancounters out there: JTO is quite right - Storm Shadow and Tomahawk are complementary, not competitive. And putting them in Sylver launchers would be a good thing for the T45 community.
If you need to know, go and ask someone. If you don't, then please accept this and move on in your search for savings. S41 |
I. Diplomatic relations * Diplomatic relations between the two countries date back to 1952, when Libyas independence was formally recognized by the UN. Greece has an Embassy in Tripoli, while Libya is represented in Greece through her Embassy in Athens. II. Framework of treaties * The main bilateral agreements making up the treaty framework of Greek-Libyan relations are as follows: * - Agreement regulating scheduled flights between and beyond Greek and Libyan territories. Initialled in Tripoli, 23.1.1979. Law 1088/4.11.80 (Gov. Gazette 258//8.11.1980). Came into force 14.2.1981 (Gov. Gazette 51//27.2.1981) - Agreement on social insurance, Athens, 24.3.1988. Law 1909/1990 (Gov. Gaz. 163//30.11.1990). Came into force 1.3.1991 (Gov. Gaz. 42//18.3.1991) Economic and Technical Cooperation - Agreement on economic and technical cooperation, Athens 21.2.1976. Law 537/7.2.1977 (Gov. Gaz. 35//9.2.1977). Came into force 20.6.1977 (Gov. Gaz. 248//3.9.1977) - Protocol of 6th Session of Joint Inter-Ministerial Committee on technical and economic cooperation, Athens, 1.11.1991(.4070). - Memorandum of Understanding (Special Greek-Libyan Committee on debt- related issues), Athens 7.5.1998 Min. Decision 29.3.1999 (Gov. Gaz. 79//14.4.1999) * III. Political relations * Relations between the two countries have a long history, dating back to the 7th century BC, when a Greek colony was founded at Cyrenaica by settlers from Thera. The first historical reference to and description of Libya (meaning Africa more generally) is to be found in the works of Herodotus. * Relations between the two countries today have important potential for further development, following the start of proceedings to bring Libya back onto the international scene in December 2003, when the Libyan leader formally renounced programmes to develop weapons of mass destruction, and following the recent lifting of EU sanctions against Libya in October 2004. * The highest level bilateral vists took place in 1984 (September, visit of the then Prime Minister A. Papandreou to Tripoli; November,*Tripartite Meeting of Messrs Papandreou, Mitterand, and Qaddafi in Elounda, Crete ). Bilateral visits since the lifting of UN sanctions in 1999 have included that by the then Deputy Foreign Minister, G. Kranidiotis, to Tripoli in September 1998, the visit made by the Libyan Foreign Minister, Mr. Mohammed Shalgam, to Athens in December 2002, and the visits of Minister for Tourist Development, Mr D. Avramopoulos (Tripoli, May 2005) and Deputy Foreign Minister, Mr G. Valinakis (Tripoli, July 2005). * V. Economic and trade relations Libya was the 2nd most important client for Greek products among Arab countries in 2007. Bilateral trade relations show significant fluctuations and the trade balance shows a permanent deficit to the detriment of Greece, which is exclusively due to imports of crude oil. Libya was Greeces 3rd most important supplier in crude oil for 2007, ahead of Saudi Arabia. * Trade * Year Exports Imports Balance 2000 21,8 m. Euro 261,1 m. Euro -239,30 m. Euro 2001 42,09 m. Euro 250,5 m. Euro -248,41 m. Euro 2002 98,83 m. Euro 241,34 m. Euro -142,51 m. Euro 2003 69,49 m. Euro 326,74 m. Euro -257,25 m. Euro 1st 9 months of 2004 96,57 m. Euro 335,10 m. Euro -141,66 m. Euro * External trade between Greece and Libya is dominated by the following products, in order of importance: oil and oil derivatives, iron and steel, organic chemicals, minerals and electrical machinery and appliances. * Figures available for 2004 would seem to indicate the beginning of a growth in trade which, if sustained, could well lead to new prospects for business and trade dealings between the two countries. Bearing in mind the stratification of bilateral trade, which is heavily weighted towards oil and oil derivatives, it is fair to say that there are substantial prospects for the expansion and development of bilateral economic and trade relations, given the significant changes occurring in the Libyan economy. Investments: Greek investment activity in Libya consists mainly in the presence in the country of the Hellenic Petroleum company, which along with the Australian Woodside Energy Ltd. and the Spanish Repsol YPF has signed a four-party joint venture agreement with the Libyan Oil Company (NOC), envisaging a programme of research and exploitation of hydrocarbons over a period of 30 years and to the tune of US $100m. Other Greek companies active in Libya are MARITECH S.A., which has a subsidiary operation in Tripoli (engaged in installing optic fibre telecommunication links along the Libyan coast), as well as the construction companies ARCHIRODON S.A. (Tripoli), ATHINA S.A. (Tripoli),*E.T.E.P. (Tripoli), SIKELIS (Ben Ghazi), and INTRACOM S.A. (as INTRACOM LIBYA BRANCH*- Tripoli). Tourism: There are major investment opportunities in a country which, whilst undergoing rapid development of her tourist infrastructure, is at the same time becoming known as a popular international tourist destination thanks to her natural beauty and ancient remains. Tourist visits to Libya can be made mainly with organized groups (through tourist bureaus). * V. Cultural relations A major cultural event of interest to Greece was the organization of the APOLLONIA 2003, arranged to mark the Cultural Olympiad by the Greek Community and Schools of Ben Ghazi, with the assistance of the Greek Embassy (Ben Ghazi and Cyrene, 9-11/5/2003). Cultural bodies with Greek ties include the Archaeological Department of the University of Ben Ghazi. VI. The Greek community The Greek community constitutes an important bridge for communication between the two countries. There have been Greeks in Tripoli and Ben Ghazi for many generations, with their own Community Organizations and Orthodox churches respectively. There are also Greeks working for companies in Libya, some with Greek connections, some entirely foreign. |
And another thing.
The terrain around Benhazi is ideal for A10 operations. I know, I once lived there. Once Air Superiority is established a single squadron based at Souda will stop any armoured advance dead in its tracks. A few fighters to protect them and everybody else can go home. |
According to Sky.
Typhoons have departed CBY Tankers have left BZZ French aircraft currently talking to malta atc @ level 280 |
Fox3wheresmybananna: Having staged my Tornado through Sigonella during a war on a Sunday, I know why the boys & girls crossed their legs and flew back to Marham! The longest unit of time, after the eon, is the "Italian bowser driver's lunch" |
Easy Street,
I was watching BBC news earlier today, I watched an MoD released video of the Tornado's preparing for last night's operations, there was a shot of one flight crew member, sitting in the cockpit, and whilst his whole face was not broadcast his physical features, parcial face, hairline, head etc. were broadcast and anyone that knows that individual would have recognised him accordingly as being involved in last night's operations! |
just look at the RAF youtube channel. shows the returning crews including a how'd it go question...
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if you check the RAF youtube channel it shows a chat with a returning crew.
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So presumably anyone who didn't know him wouldn't recognise him and there wouldn't be a problem?
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The Arab League appears to have been taken aback by the scale of the attack launched last night. If their political support ebbs away this could begin to look like the West taking on another Arab leader with the objective of Regime change.:hmm:
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Regime change is a desired side effect of the NFZ - I'm in no doubt about that, but theoretically it will happen from within.
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Typhoons departing Conningsby
Re SiteIII's post at 1324z:
BBC News24 has just broadcast video footage of at least 5 Typhoons departing RAF Conningsby, equipped with drop tanks. The video was allegedly taken some time today. |
Both Sky and BBC have shown departing aircraft.
Malta live atc has lots of chatter with coalition assets in and around the NFZ lots of realtime stuff available across the internet. |
Well done to all crews involved to date. Seems the French airforce did a too good job last night. Resulting in rather less than agreeable news from the Arab league. Still may be a stiff letter was what they expected to do the job and allow our aircraft safe passage.:ugh:
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Look at what the French did
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/21/wo...nghazi.html?hp ... For miles leading south, the roadsides were littered with burned trucks and burned civilian cars. In some places battle tanks had simply been abandoned, intact, as their crews fled. One thing, though, seemed evident: the units closest to Benghazi seemed to have been hit with their cannons and machine guns still pointing towards the rebel capital. To the south, though, many had been hit as they headed away from the city in a headlong dash for escape on the long road leading to a distant Tripoli. “They were retreating,” said Col. Abdullah al-Shafi, an officer in the rebel forces which had clamored desperately for the help that arrived on Saturday. “Soldiers had taken civilians cars and fled. They were ditching their fatigues.” .... “This is all France,” a rebel fighter, Tahir Sassi, told a Reuters correspondent as he surveyed the devastation on Sunday. “Today we came through and saw the road open.” http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/...12_634x341.jpg http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/...to-loy-004.jpg http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/...belong-004.jpg |
With respect to the GR4 missions, does anybody know if it is a Marham/Lossi Wing effort or was it a particular Sqn?
Also the news says GR4s going to Gioia; same question really? Would be good to give the job to the Crusaders as a swan song :D:D (or 13 I suppose :rolleyes:) To whomever it was/is, well done, good luck and keep safe.:ok: |
SRENAPPS,
Quite right, stay safe out there people. If the lawyers allow it under ROE, I for one would like to see GR4s deploying Brimstone as intended against Gaddafi's armoured columns. I rather suspect that this would give many of his forces (and presumably most of the mercenaries) real pause for thought. S41 |
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