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THS, always worth remembering that the reports about Argentinas military being in a utter ****-state come from a single media source, and one hostile to Argentina.
its also worth remembering that their 'defence' journalists are probably as bad and as ill-informed as the vast majority of ours are, and that the original article was written in Spanish, not English, and therefore there may be errors in the translation of technical points and nuances. yes, they probably are in a poor state, and yes, its obvious from the well publicided problem they are having with one of their ships being stuck in South Africa awaiting critical parts that they are having a short term cash flow problem, but that does negate them completely, or mean they will be in the same state in 3 months time. it also does not mean that we aren't being fed a line - one that we're gulping down like a tramp on chips. |
RC ... My bad ... Yes SBS :ok:
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during 2012 the entire submarine force combined spent less than 20 hours submerged. |
i thought that only one Sub was actually complete, and that the other two were still in crates requiring assembly - and had, to some extent been canibalised to keep the one in service - or have i mesed up my figures? |
Can I recommend "The Great Falklands Gamble: Revealed" at 7pm on Channel 5 tonight.
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cokecan
The current state of the Argentine armed forces is pretty well covered down in this part of the world, with information from multiple sources including the military themselves, and often from sources very friendly to Argentina. Nobody is feeding anyone a line, their military really is in a bad state. There has been no significant investment since the 1980s and nothing is going to change in three years, let alone three months. They have a very long term cash flow problem, and the fact that Argentina is totally skint means that's not about to change an time soon. What you also need to remember is that defeat in the Falklands brought about the end of the military junta and a return to something resembling democracy. Nobody wanted another military coup, so there was no investment in the forces for years. You can't recover that kind of neglect overnight. TTFN |
Well, this is what the argies do to their type 42s - as of today in Puerto Belgrano Apparently a 6" tube broke???
Esperan que el buque de la Armada toque fondo para repararlo - lanacion.com * I guess that is one less warship to worry about. I wonder if they'll be asking for a repair under warranty? |
LOL, very good :ok:
One less for us to sink if it kicks off soon ! |
I was looking for an aircraft carrier in the aerial shot but she must be at sea, working up! ;)
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One less 42
According to the site the 42 has been out of service since 2000 with only minimal crew on board since 2004.
However, is it me, my old eye or is there something strange about that aerial phot? The corvettes bottom right or the frigates top and middle left // T |
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"Small crew to act as guards"
Probably didn't have water tight doors shut and / or couldn't shut them fast enough once the leak was discovered. 2004 - 2013 - that's a fair while to be tied up, seeing how many ships on display corrode and need major repairs, what gave way ? |
Small crew - employment of dwarfs?
I suggest that that ship will never go to sea again. |
Apologies if this link has been posted before...
Argentine navy short on spares and resources for training and maintenance — MercoPress |
And it's over......
Desde el Gobierno no descartan que el hundimiento del Santísima Trinidad se haya tratado de un sabotaje - lanacion.com Apparently the government have been claiming it's sabotage. Have Hereford's finest been on a training mission ahead of the referendum? |
Didn't someone post a few weeks ago that the T42s had thin hulls that eroded relatively quickly, making them short-lived vessels?
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"And it's over....."
Not surprising if you move the boats that were holding it upright :O |
Milo
The main problem with the T42's (apart from their lack of decent fire control and a goalkeeper gun) was that the original design wasn't long enough which made them pretty poor sea boats - the Mk2's were lengthened by +10m I think They've done around 30 years of hard service so I think the basic structure wasn't too bad |
Google Translate's version of that last story:
l Defense Minister Arturo Puricelli, did not rule out sabotage tonight in the sinking of the Holy Trinity in Puerto Belgrano Naval Base, announced that the Navy requested a summary and instruct that could be sanctions. The official said it opened a "valve" and that this was "a wreck in a matter of hours at a time when our President was fulfilling a successful trip abroad", so it did not rule out sabotage in that fact. "It seems very strange that a vessel is disabled and a minimum guard can sink within hours," the official told the Public TV. He added: "I asked the Navy chief to instruct a summary because there is a rare hand or to look for a coherent and logical because a ship is sinking 70 and parked in the harbor" Belgrano Naval Base. Exemplified that "Sarmiento Corvette has over one hundred years, is in Puerto Madero and does not sink. Would not rule anything because some people use the armed forces to criticize our government." "The Government has no responsibility and if there is the Ministry of Defense and the Navy men who were monitoring the ship, that they should have provided the means to not matter what happened." He emphasized that "there can be a sinking ship in 70 hours, is a ship that was to be scrapped, but it certainly did not warrant ancient shipwreck would think that the mere fact of being moored in the harbor." "What I had and have to explain our armed guard is that there was a minimum to alert to any circumstances and that's what was not met," said the minister. He noted that "individual responsibility is the group of Puerto Belgrano stockpile that was responsible for monitoring the ship, without prejudice to the responsibility of higher authorities" and that "the minimum duty should have warned that a vessel of forty sink, is a modern vessel. " And said: "After the preliminary investigation that I look quite quickly and when you see the responsibility will undoubtedly sanctions |
Someone is going to get a meeting, hat on, no tea or coffee :O
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I'm a crab, so I don't know much about boats (baits hook and waits...) but to my eyes the underside of the vessel looks in pretty good condition in the photo in this link:
Desde el Gobierno no descartan que el hundimiento del Santísima Trinidad se haya tratado de un sabotaje - lanacion.com * Can any dark blue confirm/deny that opinion? How long before the Brits are accused of having some underhand input to this, directly or indirectly? Since he believes everything the Argentinian press/ministers say (Vanguard in the South Atlantic :=) no doubt keejse at least will buy such a tale! |
Oops. Sorry, Mrs Kirchner. We cannot deny it, it was us. I mean, who else do you think it was? We've got our eye on a couple of your other boats too; only fair to warn you.
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If anyone from Hereford or Poole was going to sabotage an Argentine ship, I suspect it wouldn't be one that hasn't been to sea since 1989 (according to Wikipedia, anyway). Mind you, it wouldn't harm to tip them a knowing wink...
Interestingly (no, really!) the ship was attacked by Montoneros guerillas using a limpet mine during construction in 1975. |
Biggus
I think it is a bit far away to tell. The other important thing to remember with boats is it only takes one hole to sink it, regardless of how well the condition is of rest of the keel. Can't wait to here "keejse's" take on it. He'll probably not wait for the Argies to accuse Britain, he'll do it for them. BTW, IF a 2nd war kicks off, I really think this time that the mainland and military installations on it should become fair game and the **** blown out of them once and for all so that another real lesson is sent to the country. I'm sure the SAS/SBS would appreciate a different environment for a "training" exercise. |
Oh, goodness, yes, 500N. When it kicks off again we should certainly go for mainland targets. Easily justified by the need to reduce our own casualties.
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Courtney
Very well justified. You must have been good at getting out of the preverbial after having done something wrong :O The subs (or at least one) have had a bit of recent practice lobbing missiles - Libya - so maybe time for the RAF and SBS to fly the flag ? I'd love to see her face as she looks out from the balcony to see orange mushroom clouds and explosions in the habour and close air bases. I reckon she'd wet her pants :O |
You must have been good at getting out of the preverbial after having done something wrong I reckon she'd wet her pants |
"All part of the service? "
Aaaahhhh, is that what the RAF say :O I don't know what it is about her but she really gets up my goat and I would love to see that smile wiped off her face. |
My guess is she wasn't smiling when they told her that her boat had fallen over!
Very annoying person. |
CM
We need SAMXXV here to take bets on when she will come out and accuse the UK of Sabotage. |
The other important thing to remember with boats is it only takes one hole to sink it, regardless of how well the condition is of rest of the keel. Clearly it depends on what makes that hole! A Mk48 or newer type torpedo will spoil the day of any small warship, but a shell or small bomb will be absorbed (even exocet when closed up at action stations) I would suggest this ship was in a state of neglect, lots of hatches below the water line were possibly left open and once water started to come in then its fate was sealed. I doubt it had any working pumps, no power or any trained personnel capable of early damage control. These ships do not have the old style port holes, scuttles so I am guessing this was simply caused through neglect be that leaking seals, or just plain old rust around the numerous inlets or even valves in any of the work spaces below the waterline. Nice idea however to talk about sabotage as it puts fear into the mind of the insecure :) One down, half a dozen to go :) |
And it's over......
In more than one sense!:eek: However, perhaps this will enable President Kirchner's PR people to make the best of a bad job, with the following headline appearing in BA - "Argentine underwater force significantly increased " .....;) Jack |
glojo
Agree. I said the same thing in my first post on this subject. I think the small crew on board had no idea how to close up the ship once it started leaking - that is if they noticed it ! "but a shell or small bomb will be absorbed (even exocet when closed up at action stations)" What about Sheffield and the others during 1982 ? BTW, I have been on the odd warship / patrol boat. |
Was the oil containment boom always rigged like that?
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How long before the Brits are accused of having some underhand input to this, directly or indirectly? Since he believes everything the Argentinian press/ministers say (Vanguard in the South Atlantic ) no doubt keejse at least will buy such a tale! Can't wait to here "keejse's" take on it. He'll probably not wait for the Argies to accuse Britain, he'll do it for them. IMO sinking enemy ships in their harbors, without killing anybody and have the enemy look stupid / the failure go viral would be the ultimate modern warfare :) kudos to the Brits if they fixed that. |
I'd love it if it had been us. Unfortunately, the consition of the ship must have been a real mess. As far as I know, it hasn't moved in 14 years and has probably been canibalized to keep the other T42 afloat (some kind of troop carrier now?). Add to that the fact that it was built in Argentina and hasn't been maintained for ages and it's no wonder it fall over.
I would still love to hear some new, imaginative conspiracy theories. |
James Bond :O
What about MI6 ? Maybe the next Bond movie could be about some SA female dictator intent on taking over other countries land ! That would really stir up her ladyship ! . |
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"That a boat sinks in port due to a lack of maintenance reveals the deterioration and abandonment of our fleet, vital to the defence of a sovereignty that our president never loses an opportunity to proclaim to the world, but which we are very far from being able to defend," Congressman Gustavo Ferrari said. |
"but if the country lacks defences, and the British know that, they won't ever negotiate a peaceful resolution." Read more: Argentine destroyer that led war against Britain sinks, a symbol of decay for once-proud navy |
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