Then there was the VC10 that flew a simulated 2 eng approach at Brize and the crew forgot the gear....only a well observed call from ATC prvented a wheels up - GPWS wouldve stopped it. Not forgetting that ac was flown by Trg Flt staff.

I flew and loved the VC10 for 12 years, it provided endless adventures, but the 4 man flightdeck is safer argument is I'm afraid one from the dinosaurs.

Now back to my Airbus and it's faults! :)

Tourist

Beagle is entitled to his opinion like anyone else and although he is no longer flying the VC10, he was one of the best operators of his generation, and with a few thousand hours on the VC10 flight deck, he has a fair idea of what procedures are in place.

Back to the point - the VC10 flies all over the world (right now) carrying exercise and operational pax. It sometimes carries these pax with a couple of fast jets attached to its backside, whilst discharging lots of fuel at quite high speeds..... not exactly civilian SOP.

Risk assessment i get, changing the rules as to what is acceptable today, is not tomorrow, oh, but we need it to do this task so its ok again the day after... is a pain in the ass.

Torygraph: James Blunt misses Afghanistan concert

It was meant to be a morale-boosting trip to cheer up hundreds of troops spending Christmas in Afghanistan.

Instead, international superstars James Blunt and Katherine Jenkins got a taste of the kind of problems faced by soldiers heading to and from the battlefield as they found themselves stranded for 15 hours at East Midlands airport.

The gaffes lead Mr Blunt, a former officer in the Life Guards, to tell friends that it “bad organisation, verging on incompetence” that led to the cancellation. Fortunately neither singer was aware that the antique VC10 aircraft they had boarded had been banned from taking passengers bar in exceptional circumstances because of safety fears over its ageing equipment.

The two singers joined 160 soldiers at East Midlands airport for a 7am flight on Tuesday to fly out to Helmand for a two-show tour. Mr Blunt was particularly keen to get out to Afghanistan after aircraft problems prevented him travelling last year.

An initial 90 minute delay was caused by the RAF failing to have the right equipment to load the meals on board. Once this was cleared the crew boarded only to discover that the 50-year-old aeroplane’s airborne radar system was malfunctioning. But they had to wait eight hours before they got clearance from RAF chiefs to fly without the problem fixed.

The passengers were then allowed to board shortly after 4pm but the RAF ground movers miscounted the passengers and enforced another delay because they believed they had an extra person on board.

As a result they missed their re-scheduled take-off slot for shortly after 5pm.

But the previous hold-ups meant that the aircrew were outside their duty hours and needed an enforced rest and the aircraft could not fly on its new take-off slot.

The plane had to be emptied but it took almost five hours to get everyone off as no buses could be found to off-load the troops. They were not allowed to walk to the terminal just 75 yards away.

No replacement aircrew could be found and the entire flight was cancelled.

A friend of James Blunt told The Daily Telegraph that the blunders were down to “bad organization, verging on incompetence within the structure of the RAF”.............

If I was on the front line, NOT having James Blunt trying to sing, would be the better morale booster than having him there..

at last a bit of good news..............

RAF save UK troops in Afghanistan from being forced to listen to diminutive squeeky one hit wonder!

Having woken up in pedantic nit picker mode - it is my understanding that the VC10 CMk1 entered RAF service in July 1966 and commenced regular route flights on 4 April 1967.

You mean it's suddenly unsafe to fly without GPWS?

Not sure how I'll cope from now on. Especially this single pilot IFR stuff.

If today's RAF transport crews need GPWS to tell them when to round out over the runway (!), we should all be very concerned. Perhaps the least of our worries should be the age of the airframes?

P.S. If the VC10 is that bad, I demand my money back for all that highly risky backwards flying they made me do. Thinking about it, they never gave me a hi-vis vest to wear, either. How bad was that?

I'm completely traumatised, just before Christmas, too. Where do I claim..... :E

Justanopinion, thanks for the comment - where should I send the cheque?

To say that the VC10 is no longer safe to carry passengers because it doesn't have exit floor lighting or GPWS is a bit like saying it isn't safe to carry passengers in a 20 year old car which has neither airbags nor rear seatbelts. It might not be as 'wrapped in cotton wool' safe as a modern aircraft, but it isn't 'unsafe'.

I don't know whether the CCWR has been upgraded from the orange porridge Ecko 190 the VC10 had when I flew them, but I would have far sooner had a modern radar system than a GPWS.

And yes, GPWS Mode 4A would possibly have stopped that C-130 wheels-up landing.

I don't know when that alleged 2-engine wheels-up approach was flown, but most of us had a 'personal' gear/flap/clearance check at '1000 ft'. But if it is true, then well spotted that ATC person!

When conducting instructor training, I would contrive to get the student instructor into a potential gear up situation, but only after secretly briefing the whole crew first. I would play the Bloggs pilot bit, querying the specific route of the visual circuit for long enough to reach the base turn, then call out 'flap - approach' and fly as normal - when the gear horn went off, the student FI was expected to take control and sort matters out. I expected him to go around onto the deadside, then we would discuss how easy it was to be lulled into such a situation. This ensured that the student FI would probably NEVER get into the same situation with a real student!

No, in the VC10, GPWS would be a 'nice to have', but I do not consider it essential given the presence of 2 well-trained rear crew on the flight deck.

Yes - and maintaining crew situational awareness has mitigated the risks to an acceptable degree. I would be quite happy to return to the VC10 and fly the aeroplane as it stands.

GPWS, like so many other pieces of kit on an aeroplane, is there in part to enhance safety and in part to covers the @rses of aircrew who are not doing their job properly.

It will help to make an operation more safe but its absence does not necessarily make the operation UNsafe.

OK, a close call perhaps - although I've never heard of that incident before - but maybe also one that makes the point that "Management" or "Training" staff crews are the ones most likely to screw it up (remember the 8 Sqn Shackelton crash in 1990 and the 216 "broken spar" incident c1985?). I'm not complacent - I recognise that GPWS, TCAS etc. have a benefit but their absence does not make an aeroplane unsafe to fly. 80% of civil airliner accidents are caused by people and quite often because they ignore GPWS (Flying Tigers 747F in Kuala Lumpur) or TCAS (Tu154 that hit the DHL 757). The Flying Tigers crew were flying an NDB approach without the plates in front of them, descending to 400' when cleared to 2400' QNH and ignored GPWS instructions for almost 30 secs. There were numerous opportunities there for a more professional approach to operations to have saved their lives.

You cannot prevent idiots killing themselves and their companions. There have been cases where two crew aircraft have flown into the ground with the GPWS screaming "PULL UP!!!" and the crew shouting "SHUT-UP!!"
No. The accidents that led up to its introduction all occurred on three-crew aircraft. GPWS has probably been the most useful innovation in avionics during my 46 years as an avionics engineer.

However, the appearance of Katherine Jenkins would certainly boost MY morale (if I may call it that!).

BEagle, so you stand by your statement about wet behind the ears pilots and idiots?
That's precisely the attitude that leads to CFIT accidents - "It won't happen to me". Pathetic.

Blacksheep is quite correct.

Nothing is Foolproof - because Fools are too ingenious.

James Blunt - the only man to be his own cockney rhyming slang

Who are James Blunt and Katherine Jenkins anyway? Don't think I ever flew them on 10 Sqn.

The other problem with GPWS is that of unintended consequences. In the early days of A310 MRTT crew training, the GPWS suddenly issued an alert whilst we were conducting AAR on Saxon anchor.... The reason was that one of the receivers had crossed a bit too close underneath the back of the jet and the GPWS had found itself a 'glass mountain'. But what concerned me was the way both pilots looked at each other in confusion, without knowing what to do. Fortunately the wise head in the jump seat told them "It's spurious, carry on with your tanking!" We were also concerned that an electric nanny might also call out "Retard, retard" if the receivers got within 30ft of the rad alt, so a note to this effect is now included in the relevant FCOM section.

CRM? I was always amused by RFK's comment about that: "CRM? That's for poofs!".

The 'wet-behind-the-ears' comment was to infer that that GPWS is supposed to make flying 2-pilot people-tubes safe no matter how inexperienced the crew are - that's all.

If you read the article, it looks like 'yellow coat' elfin safety nonsense - the passengers weren't allowed to walk 75 yards to the terminal.

EXascot fraid you are showing your ignorance. Movers are just that, not suppliers. Only the Orificers are Loggies with a mover tick. :rolleyes:

And it's the officers that cause the trouble, in my experience.

The in-flight service seems to have changed since last month!!
Video: Katherine Jenkins sings to troops on plane after Afghan trip cancelled - Telegraph

and this also proves that unless things have REALLY improved, that is NOT a VC10!!:ugh:

(Nice to see the ATSY are still enforcing the 'no mobile phones to be taken into theatre' rule!!)

If the movers can't count up to 160, what will happen when the A330's arrive? :(

Is that clever laser, as in technology, or clever loser, as in Mover? :oh:

Thinks of Brian Hanrahan (RIP)

I cannot say how many people were on the VC10but I counted them all out and then counted some extra when they came back again

In this season of goodwill - how about giving credit where credit is due?
 

On 19 Dec, Brize Norton and most UK airports experienced some of the most severe pre-Christmas weather for decades.

The task faced by all airports is similar - get passengers moving on time – but as the UK end of the Afghanistan Airbridge, the task facing Brize Norton was more personal – get TROOPS home for R&R at Christmas.

Working in temperatures of -15C to get and keep the airfield clear of the 15cm of snow, Brize Norton opened 7 hours earlier than most international airports
Off-duty shifts were called in and leave was been cancelled in all but the most exceptional circumstances.
Facing a backlog of almost 600 soldiers, sailors and airmen the Station rescheduled almost a dozen flights to produce a plan that should get all the troops home for Christmas.
The last passengers from Afghanistan will be in the UK on the afternoon of Christmas Eve.
Regrettably, many people have been delayed but the Movements Team in Afghanistan has prioritised travel on a case by case basis. R&R passengers have been put at the front of the list and shorter-term ‘visitors’ will be recovered on the later flights.
While keeping the Airbridge open, the personnel at Brize Norton have also:
Recovered almost 100 troops conducting vital pre-deployment training overseas.
Maintained support to the UK’s quick reaction alert.
Mounted an AeroMed flight which involved the civilian police escorting one of the surgeons to the aircraft.
Personally I think that's pretty good!!!! :D

Having not been at EMA to witness the Movers first hand. I would take a guess there was not as much free hand control afforded to the RAF. Has no one experianced the problems of getting pax to flight, from Hotel when down route (EMA might as well be classed as that, Anyone actually worked threre, Security is aBIG word there and it takes a while to get anything and keep it airside). We seem to forget how lucky we are when operating from home ports. How many extra security checks do you undergo just to get airside at your normal work place. As for Pax counts, the ALM also does a head count and that would not impose a massive delay if wrong (you only have to count the empty seats!).

My youngest son lost three days of his leave due to the Tri-Stars going tech in Cyprus, he and about 300 hundred others were camped on the perim of Kandahar, with the RAF totally knackered seems a total load of Boll.ks to run aircraft of that age( are they ex Freddie Laker) when the nation needs to keep an airbridge working every hour of every everyday to bring back more serious people. Then they are told Pilots need to rest after flying in from Cyprus, what sort of plonkers are running that side of the AF

the Yanks always seem to do it right for their Military, when we are supposed to boast of the finest fighting force in the World, has someone at the head sheds house, forgotten we need better busses, If we as a Nation cannot do any better, then we should withdraw from all theatres and have a Boarder Defence force only to work entirely from and within our Country, stop all this wetdream stuff for the Polititians, or better still send those political morons to sort it out with their mouths, and keep our underequipped miltary at home.
Shambolic is the word to describe all this..!

Peter R-B

Agatha, makes the comment that R&R people were put to the front of the list, that is a total load of ****e the RAF regiment who were going home for good, took priority on the one A/C that landed in kandahar despite being asked if they would swop for Infantry already late and eating time from their R&R, booking in and seat numbers were sorted out by two Army Majors and 3 Captains, who listed long hand everyone who was a priority and wrote out the loading lists, the sort of crap being fed back to you Agatha is WRONG.

Peter R-B

But that nice Mr Cameron said everything would be alright and our Forces have lost none of their capability.

Makes ME wonder who he thinks believe him or a word any other politician says.

Look at Wikileaks again, there is a lot of invertebrate literature there too.

I see everybody is very quick at blaming the RAF for this latest debacle!

There is only one culprit and that a succession of governments that the British tax payer has voted into power which have repeatedly under funded the military.

Its time the British public realised how badly the government is letting its troops down.

Some of the billions we waste on overseas aid would be better spent at home.

Procurement creep, surely?

I recall a confident announcement in 1996, when were told by MoD that the VC10 and TriStar would be out of service "in the next 10 years", to be replaced by some 25-30 'MRTT' aircraft (A310MRTT or B767-200ER were the favourites).

Mind you, we were also told that the in-service date for 25 x 'FLA' (which became A400M) was 2004....:\

Now 14 years later, the poor old VC10s and TriStars are still struggling on, there are no A400Ms in service yet (and their numbers have been cut), the '25-30' MRTT have become 14, of which only 9 will be in regular use....

And we thought that it was bad when they binned 99 and 511 all those years ago...

Hope the poor buggers in the Great Sandpit get home for Christmas!

Do we still have a crew at KAF as part of the slip pattern to take the outbound aircraft?

PTC - REMF - Yep.

Just curious, if they are the off going crew and there was a crew to take the aircraft back , why would the pax be told that the crew needed rest? Surely they would go straight into crew rest handing over the aircraft to the crew who had been at Kandahar?

The last 2 times I've been on a trooper into East Midlands we taxied straight to the cargo terminal, walked off the aircraft, straight onto
MT coaches at the bottom of the steps and swept out of the airfield gates for a quick journey home. No sign of any movers or customs or security checks or H&S knobbers.

Mind you this was courtesy of the French Air Force and their excellent AT squadron and their Airbuses various.

Embarkation on one of these flights was being held up by the UK Rozzers we had to have with us, doing a bag check. FAF Captain strolls up, "they are all military yes?" er yes, "then get out of the way and let them on my aircraft so we can get moving".

Comfortable. Efficient. Crew and cabin staff in smart uniforms not overstretched growbags. Fine food for all. No one dicking about pretending to be LHR security through their own deluded sense of self importance. On time, fully serviceable, and not covered in bits of dayglo with the details of whatever ADF the broken bit of cabin was snagged as. A very model of military AT that we could do much to aspire to.

Peter RB,

The US does better than the UK because it spends 4% of its much larger GDP on Defence. In fact the US spends more on Defence than the next 25 largest spenders put together. The RAF still has ageing Air Transport jets because the last government did not increase Defence spending at a time of war. The Services could not afford the additional costs of the War in Afghanistan and modernise its forces at the same time. Finally, the Treasury has always insisted that defence contracts go to UK or European Comapnies even when there is a cheaper alternative somewhere else.

The RAF people you keep having a pop at have worked bl**dy hard over the last week to overcome technical and weather problems that nobody else would have overcome. If you represent all the thanks that they get - I doubt they'll bother again. Fortunately, most sensible troops do recognise the problems and the effort expended and will be grateful when in the end they get home for Christmas.

Flew back after 6 months in the desert last week, thank you for getting me home, even landed about 10 minutes early. Shame all the money in the 80s was spent on tanks, that is why they are still flogging around in old airliners, doing a good job in my opinion, for what it is worth:).

Yeah I have to say the last 2 posts are spot on. People work damm hard to do the best with what they have got and some jumped up arse like David Blunt criticises.
Yet again the story has just made the RAF look unproffesional as usual thats the more damaging, Joe public dont care about underfunding and political **** ups, they just hear the troops have been let down by the RAF.

I totally agree the RAF made out as scapegoats. This was a civilian charter operating out of a civilian airport handled by a civilian ground handler. There would only have been one or two movers probably RLC to assist with escorting the pax from BZZ and getting weapons and baggage through the very strict airport security. So Mr Blunt if you want to blame someone speak to the CEO of the airline operating that leg not the RAF!!!

Not one complimentary comment for Katherine – just goes to show the half glass empty mentality. How sad.:(:(