Pay and allowances
 

I heard a rumour that the pay and allowances review had been delayed.... Is flying pay safe then or is still for the chop?

Safe I reckon.

They are going to be begging for aircrew in a few years' time and a fair few aircrew would be up sh*t street with their mortgages if they took it away.

dream on guys.........dream on.............

Widger,

I guess from your post that you believe Flying Pay will not survive. You're wrong; it's very simple, if you want someone to do 3-4 years training just to get to the front line, followed by a myraid of other courses to increase their effectiveness as instructors (etc) then you will have to pay them extra. Either that or cut the pay of those who don't do these kind of courses.

Of course, if I have mis-construed your post I wait with baited breath for clarification.

Bootflap read the JSP, flying pay is a retention incentive, pretty soon we won't be needing to retain quite so many people!
I think FP when not on a flying tour will go, it's all about money and we ain't got any.
If people don't like it they can leave, which will suit the MOD to a tee.

If anyone thinking flying pay on ground tours is going to get chopped you are delluded. If you think anyone who is at the top of their game in the flying world would even ponder for 2 seconds going into important roles at the IPT or MAA and face a 12 grand paycut, you are more stupid than most bitter and twisted base support wing losers.

In reality nobody knows what the final package will look like. However given the sheer ridiculous scale of what has to be saved there is no doubt that some highly unpalatable things will have to be done. It seems to me that no one element of the package will be lopped off completely because of the terminal consequences for retention of the personnel affected. What is more likely is a reduction in the amount paid out in a large number of different areas combined with some tightening on the eligibility or banding rules for things like CEA, HTD and possibly flying pay.

There are a lot and I mean a lot of people balancing on the cliff edge of major decisions at the moment. If they removed flying pay this hitting the most experienced hardest they would all just leave.... End of. We may not be aloud to strike but 50% of aircrew in the RAF hitting PVR would have an even bigger effect. Plus they would have to stop all flying as the Flight Safety implication of having such a large number of upset people would be huge. I'd place money on a flying pay increase in about 2 years or at least another round of FRI's. Now stick that in your blunt pipe and smoke it! :-)

I think that Flying pay will survive but only if you are in a flying job...not a flying "related" job but actually flying current.... if you are not flying current then I'm afraid that you are going to see a pay drop.


Boarding School allowance (or whatever it is called now).... is that safe?

Home to duties (again... whatever that is called).... Thats looking very Iffy...


You are correct that Flying pay is a retention bonus but other posters are correct....we don't need to retain aircrew...in fact we need to make them redundant.... there are a lot of Harrier and Nimrod aircrew looking for jobs....

And all these peole that would PVR what are they going to leave to do????
On a ground tour? watch out!

Since they chopped 25% of Home to duties when the price of fuel was going up and no-one made much of a fuss, i guess it is only time before the rest goes. Similar story with LOA, rumour has it that is next for the chop

I think the harsh reality is that the Treasury probably won't agree to making redundancy payments to a group of people who are also getting retention payments. :ugh:

Look in the mirror before you throw stones..... :*

Even when some aircrew no longer have aircraft, and there are no pilot jobs in the civilian sector?

And where does the extra money come from to retain expertise that is genuinely needed at the moment (eg EOD)?

No wonder the Treasury takes such a cynical view of MOD spending.

And yet FP was not reduced or gotten rid of during any of the previous redundancy rounds. :confused:

They get EOD pay and a £50000 FRI...

Hows that for you?:ugh:

It is not enough for me. Especially as you have to do two 6 month HERRICK tours in return.

I have mates who are ATOs and I honestly do not know how they do it. 'Brave' does not begin to describe them.

The question that really needs to be answered is:

Why pay a retention package to someone we do not need to retain?

Opprtunies For Harrier Pilots
 

Gentlemen and Ladies if there are any.

Like the service life and a hot jet? Why waste all that expirience and knowledge when you are an ace at weapons and can hover. Ever thought of doing the same but at lower speeds and altitudes but with two engines. Become an Apache pilot.

LB

So, it would be safe to say, Vin, you feel quite strongly about it? :}

I asked where does the money come from?

My point was that rather than asking Treasury to cough up extra UOR money to pay retainers to people who really are needed at the moment, why not end retainers for those who are not in short supply?

Downsizer, Trim Stab asked where it was going to come from, not where it is going to.

I'm reading all this "they will never cut it" bollox and thinking it seems so like the long list of "they will never cancel MRa4 / we can't not have LRMP / We need the Harriers for the Carriers / Scampton can't close because Nigger is buried there / and all that other stuff that came to pass.

The RAF is too big for both the requirements of the MOD and the available budget.

Any business faced withthis kind of budget crisis would make savage and effective cuts.

Close Kinloss full stop.

Close Lossie, Aircraft and kit to Marham full stop. No need for the OCU, just use existing experienced Pilots & SLF.

Close a handfull of others as well, including Lyneham, on the basis of, aircraft and equipment gets relocated to other stations, and ALL the service people get binned as of the end of the month.

No fannying around, no protecting yer pals. Yer station is out of business and you are out of a job. Real World, Real World, Go!

No Harriers, no need for Harrier drivers. Etc. Etc.

Enough Tonka mates can be found doing other things, including flying Tonkas from Marham.

A quick and easy (on the MOD & RAF) solution.

The people at Kinloss who said it could not be done are seeing that it could. When will the rest of you wake up and see it not only can but very well might, real soon?

I know a Flt Lt getting FP who has not been in the air for 18 months and has no potential for getting off the ground as aircrew ever again.

How can that be right?

Apart from the fact that there are no jobs to go to so they will not be leaving in droves through desire, the RAF has no need for loads of the people it has at present so there is little or no case for looking after anyone.

I'm not saying I agree with the principle, but you all need to accept the possibility.

The people who say we can't manage with less are nearly right. We can't do what we have been doing with half the people, a third of the aircraft and a lot less money.

But that's all that we really need to do a lot less, which is what is being asked of us. Not just in the RAF but all over the UK.

Budget holders have ruined the country, not just bailing out the banks, it runs deeper than that. So many items of waste are under your nose every day. Did the RAF Fight Safety Department really need to produce calendars? How can it be a good idea to spend millions of pounds a year on SSSA so that some staff can be based where they are not required instead of getting them to do the job from an airfield with quarters?

Would recruitment really have suffered without the Typhoon/Eurofighter branded Lanyards to give away at airshows? Do we need to have the AFCO in teh city centre paying a small fortune in rent when anyone who can't find their way to an airfield or a postbox may not be what the recruiters ought to be looking at anyway.

Do we need a 42 in plasma TV in the Guard room for visitors to watch while getting a vehilce pass?

Could we not have continued to use whiteboards and dry markers instead of the ever so clever (and expensive) new interactive stuff?

Whiteboards,,,, Chuffin' eck...we still use blackboards and chalk.... we dream of a whiteboard

If he was medically grounded, he would not be in reciept of flying pay. I ask again, how are you going to get peeps with the required experience to go into a 2 1/2 year desk tour unless they get to keep flying pay?

The only other way is promotion. In which case, the MOD will get to pay increased pensions when they come to leave.

Those that seem to think we have a darth of aircrew today are correct. Unfortunately for the RAF, the airline industry is about to pick up globally, and when it does, all those people that nearly defaulted on their mortgages due to a 12K top rate flying pay cut with their desk tour arent going to stick around I would suggest.

We are 18 months off a pretty serious decrease in aircrew numbers, due to the suck from the civil industry. When we have an RAF that has no experience due to the most senior and experienced walking, (because it will be those sorts that WILL leave) I suggest we will have problems. If people are discounting this, do some sniffing. A good place to start would be the number of first tourist pilots currently sitting their ATPL Groundschool exams.

Reality Check....
 

Quite amazing to read this "they can't do this to us" attitude.

What do you really expect...do you think they really give a fig about you as an individual/sqn/force...?

Its the harsh reality check that has been needed for years.

The attitude of don't worry the queen is paying has had its day...finally...we all paid and will continue to do so for a long time.

5d2d

A 'darth' of aircrew? Is that like a 'flange' of baboons?

The announcement was due yesterday, but it has been delayed due to the apparent political sensitivities of the impending bad news. Bosses at Land have been told to flag up resultant cases of financial hardship to the chain of command. Guess that says a lot.

No idea what the news is, but suggestions did include that it might end up hitting guys on ops - LSA? Who knows. However, it's now apparently gone political, don't expect anything in the immediate future. Wait until UK plc is having a really really bad day, then we might get to hear something.

Oh well, Russia just winning the 2018 World Cup may fit the description - stand-by for incoming.

Can't see them hitting Op Allowances while we are still engaged in Afghanistan.

LSA may go unless you are actually outside of the UK - not just away from home base.
CEA will go unless you are in SFA.
IE will go.
Disturbance Allowance will go.
HDT (Public) Personal Contribution will go to 9 Miles while the rate is cut.
Motor Mileage Allowance cut or will go.
Expect UK and overseas subsistence rates to be cut.
Mess Dress (SNCO) allowance to go.
Uniform Tax Allowance (Officers) to go.
Civilian Clothing Grant to go.
Unpleasant Working Allowance to be restricted to worst case band.
Multi-Engine In-flight catering to be cut - pax hot meals to go and no rations for crews on local sorties - grab and go to come in and be paid for by individual.
Flying Pay to be reduced/cut and qualifying periods extended.

Merry Christmas:mad:

Flying Pay
 

In the Canadian Air Force, aircrew on a ground tour don't keep their flying pay - no retention problem here! With the UK government’s love of anything Canadian right now maybe I should e-mail "call me Dave" and let him know.

CWD

Blighter Pilot

I don't think you are far off with that list.

J_J:uhoh:

CWD,

The "huge" difference between the RCAF and RAF FP is in the amount. For you - losing 38p a day is not really an issue. For us - losing 13k per year is a big issue.

No-one has mentioned aircrew retention bonuses. Have these already stopped or are certain individuals still picking up 100k pre tax as I type?

.38p
 

Party,

I think FP here is more than 0.38p, but then you sort of make my point for me. The CAF manage to recruit and retain aircrew without a very high FP package, so as the UK is strapped for cash right now and for the foreseeable future, why should you guys get paid 13K FP anyway? Is a high rate of FP really reflective of the difference between military aircrew pay and civi aircrew pay these days? I understood that starting salary as a new recruit in the airlines isn't as high as it used to be.

The "Royal" part of the CAF was dropped some time ago.

CWD

CWD,

You're being a bit naughty there and selectively comparing small parts of 2 different systems. Canadian pilots are paid on a seperate payscale and so whilst their FP is small their Captain's pay compares favourably to a Flt Lt who's on top rate flying pay and it's pensionable (accrued at 2% of final salary for each year served if I remember correctly).

Not a bad deal.

Dash2

Ps isn't it the Canadian Air Division now not CAF?

Not to mention the savings achieved in cuts to the admin overhead of all that...

CWD,

Before Jayand picks me up on the 13k figure - it's actually on a graduated scale for the RAF with a low starting rate of FP building to the higher rate after 8 years. I'm not sure how starting salaries compare between the RAF and the airlines but for the very experienced aircrew, i.e, read across airline captain / AT captain, the 13k (ish) addition is fairly realistic. The real problem though is that our senior aircrew (myself included) have become used to getting the extra pay and have consequently made life decisions (and mortgages) on the expectation of continuing to receive a similar rate. For yourself, the percentage pay cut that you will experience going into a ground tour might not put you off and it could also be advantageous for your career. For us, individuals would not accept the huge percentage reduction so readily, creating havoc in the manning world once SDSR has eventually balanced out.

Apologies about the "Royal" bit by the way!

University Air Sqns - ATC Cadet AEF or in short a whole fleet of Grob Tutor aircraft and VGS gliders; BBMF, Red Arrows, Airshows, Recruiting offices, PTIs, Central Messing (kitchens), all remain under the Radar; but for how long.

We cannot afford tradition or nostalgia any more then we can afford to pass on borrowed money in a sub to Eire or continue handing out to third world countries.

Dash - You are correct
 

You are correct; I was being a bit mischievous. I didn't mention that the pay is different from the RAF. Sorry about that. I also accept Party's point about those already on FP making life decisions; maybe (like the AFPS 05 pension) a new FP package could be introduced to new joiners?

The CAF is the wider Airforce, 1 CAD is the same as Air Command in the RAF. There are members of the AF that are not in 1 CAD, such as myself in a Project Office.

One other big difference in pay between the CAF and the RAF is that we got a pay rise this year, I wish I could say the same for my RAF pension.

CWD
:O

As for Canadians with flying pay....

Top level Sgt NCA with middle rate flying pay gets the same amount of money (after conversion) as the top level Sgt Canadian NCA without flying pay... So there is no need for retention because they are already paid much better than the UK equivalents.

Experience tells me that lately that is becoming less and less likely :(