Military Licence Exemptions beyond April 2012
 

I have just returned from a meeting with the CAA discussing, amongst other things, the status of the UK military licence exemptions beyond April 2012, the latest date by which the CAA must conform to EASA regulations.

As far as military exemptions go, they have made it clear that the current exemptions will not continue beyond that date.

There is an option which allows the CAA to make a case for military exemptions under EASA rules but the CAA will not staff this, saying that it is the responsibility of the MOD to produce the case and, if they do so, the CAA will submit it. Similarly they will not submit a case based on the current exemptions, their argument being that the military training system has changed since these were drawn up.

So, if any PPRuNers have influence in whichever part of MOD currently deals with this, please do your best to keep the process moving, 2012 is closer than it looks.

Some background info here, military exemptions are referred to on page 4.

A quick question (Beags might be able to help here)

Would this be beyond current front liners to staff in their spare time? Or will it require dedicated funding, of the sort that we could get a whip round to pay for?

Personally, I am doing all 14 exams anyway, it would be a shame to lose this ability for experienced (but exam lazy) chaps who have the hours to use their time towards doing less work for their licenses?

Alex - that's most interesting. When you and I were at an EASA briefing at Gatwick some years ago, you may recall that I asked EASA's Michaela Verissimo that very question. She assured us that responsibility would remain with the CAA (in the case of the UK) and the CAA's Ben Alcott nodded his agreement.

The CAA has become increasingly aware that many ME military pilots are given such little PIC time in training these days that they don't even qualify for a CPL after a co-pilot tour on a TriStar, for example...:rolleyes: So they have to burn holes in the sky in a PA28 to meet the 70 hr minimum PIC requirement. Perhaps this has influenced their thinking?

What evidence does the CAA have to allege that the military training system has changed since the current agreement was drawn up?

It was due to government policy in respect of qualifications gained in military service that the current arrangement was developed, as well as being a JAR-FCL obligation. Were your discussions with Cliff Whittaker? If so, maybe I should tell him that I will draw the attention of my local MP (David Cameron) to this CAA volte face and ask DC to direct the relevant department to investigate the situation further?

If the RAF system is still adequate enough to produce TriStar 'first officers', it must be good enough to meet the existing exemption arrangments!

No lets see, military training may not be credited, but a Multi Crew Lic will be? Now I know the World is mad and run by the bean counters. How can such a move even be considered? {And for those who didnt make the cut in the military, please dont bother with the "Military training is too far removed from civilian flying"} nonsense! Flying skills are flying skills, my generation had no problems limiting bank angles when we started flying SLF.From the DC4 to the 767 and Airbus we had no problems adapting. If the CAA dont make the case to the rest of the World then they need to be removed from their cushy jobs.{Now let me tell you how I really feel!}

VinRouge, the last time it was indeed a 'front liner' who started the ball rolling after having read JAR-FCL 1. Some sniffy sod of a Wg Cdr at Learning Command tried to give me a hard time about drawing the attention of a 4* to this as as potential recruiting and retention incentive ('proper staffing chains'....:rolleyes:), but when Bliar announced that qualifications gained in military service were to be recognised in civilian life, I put the case to the Stn Cdr. Word filtered onwards and upwards and it was ultimately the Scottish Officer who kicked sufficient arse at Binnsworth to get some staff officers working on it.

If there is anyone left at whatever passes for Learning Command these days, then you need a staff officer to be tasked to sort the matter out NOW. Otherwise the Services will lose a valuable recruiting and retention incentive.

These days we don't really want a :{

So is this in line with EU OPS (Or whatever they are calling it these days) coming in?

When is EU-OPS superceding JAR OPS?

Hi Beags, it was indeed Cliff Whittaker, and the entire FCL heirarchy. Reading between the lines the CAA are saying that, whereas responsibility for submitting the case rests with the CAA, they don't have the capacity to draw it up and have therefore shuffled the job off to the MOD. I think there may have been one or two meetings on the subject already. I have offered our resources to help if required, the CAA have said that they will put the offer to MOD.

Evidence? No.

Clunkdriver, you'll always get the hours credited, this is about easing the licensing system for those leaving the services. The default case is that you do all the exams and flight tests as if you were, for instance, an FAA ATPL holder on conversion, the best outcome is that it is in the CAA's power, if the case is made and EASA agree, to credit nearly everything as is currently done for experienced ME crews.

Alex, Yes, Im aware of this, having owned five flight schools and helped many ex military to ease their way into civvy street. Many years ago I had to obtain a Brit ATPL along with a few others to fulfill certain contracts, I got a chuckle out of one guy studying with me, he had to take time of from class as he was flying the GG on a country wide tour in the C5 VIP aircraft {The piston C5 , not the new one} He still had to write those exams like the rest of us, what a joke. By the way a certain Comonwealth country didnt want to credit any of my time claiming that a 37,500lb twin jet aircraft was not relevent! Turned out the guy behind this was a failed RNZAF pilot, go figure.

It is interesting that with the predicted shortage of Airline pilots, the CAA are making it more difficult to become one.

"As far as military exemptions go, they [the CAA] have made it clear that the current exemptions will not continue beyond that date [beyond April 2012]." Thanks for bringing that to everyone's attention, Alex! So, to all you guys and gals that currently have the benefit of these dispensations - start your work for the license now! Do not count on the MoD doing anything to save those dispensations between now and April 2012. The MoD is up to it's arse in alligators dealing with the fallout of the spending review, and the CAA is obviously sloping it's shoulders. The dispensations, for those who meet the requirements, are a valuable saving in further effort and expense - don't waste them! Start now, because it could easily take all the time between now and April 2012 to get all the ticks for your ATPL. And Alex's Bristol Groundschool is a superb way of getting yourself through the academic hurdles! I would have had a very much harder time had I not attended some crammers and used Alex's training material back when we still had to do all the CAA exams. Alex and his team are expert in getting you through the exams. (No, I have no connection with Alex's outfit, but I have absolutely no hesitation in recommending it.) Get cracking folks! [For some reason I am unable to format any of my post - paragraphs, italics, etc!?!?]

Well, Just This Once... , if RAF flying training really has atrophied to the extent you indicate, then there would seem $od all point in attempting to seek any EASA accreditation...:ugh:

What a huge shame.

I must admit that I spotted the rot setting in when a new co-pilot arrived on the squadron who hadn't even flown solo at night during his so-called RAF flying training :mad:

So Just This Once, What does the RAF wings training consist of these days? {And I dont mean what the Royals do} How many hours and what training does the average Joe pilot wind up with when he steps forward on his/her wings parade? Its many years since I trained and really have lost track of the changes apart from playing a small part helping with the Tutor introduction in Canada.

So, assuming that the MoD is to busy to facilitate its pilots' licensing, when do they need to start the process to get in prior to the 2012 deadline. Do the licenses need to be signed off by then or just commenced?

Sorry, we don't have many of these. Certainly, none could be spared to work on a task which might actually make a big difference to a lot of the people who are now facing the axe.

Alex,

Many thanks for bringing this to everyone's attention. Forgive my ignorance, but will this affect RW folks aspiring to CPL(H)/ATPL(H) in the same way?

Surely the minimum requirements for the Bridging Package/Fully exempted ATPL dictate that there will not be any applicant going for their licences with insufficient experience??

2500hrs of which 1500 P1 of which 1000hrs captain IIRC.

Which means that all the talk of low hours applicants is irrelevant. It WILL mean that in this day-and-age it will take at least an extra tour to gain those hours when compared to when the rules were drawn up. But the levels remain the same; a 2500hrs ex-mil pilot (in particular a ME pilot) will have BAGS of relevant experience.

And what are the rules for the other EU nations? I'm sure EASA was meant to bring us in line with those nations, some of which have lower experience requirements than the UK.

The guys/gals may arrive on unit with fewer captain/solo hours the before, but the Co-Pilots I see are, by and large, a pretty handy bunch. Within months of the OCU, they're off flying profiles that would never have been completed by the average 'yesteryear' mate in all their tours. The training system isn't letting us down as the receiving unit; it would be preferable for the individuals all to have completed up to BHT in BFJTS to allow them more 'airtime' for their own experience bank, however economics preclude this.

I think we're selling ourselves short here; flying rates are low, but not the immovable totals for ATPL accreditation.

I started the full 14 exams whilst on a CFS tour. There was no guarantee of achieving the required 1000 hrs on a Captains tour in order to qualify for the 'FREE' Atpl.

I would say that although there are many irrelevant or outdated topics there is also a lot of good 'Gen' to be gained, much of which is just not covered in the Military FTS or even on a ME OCU. If nothing else it is all useful background knowledge.

I would definitely recommend Bristol as the place to do the course. Alex has a brain the size of a planet and the people he recruits are equally talented. If they can't get you through the exams then no one will!!!!

Also with careful use of ELCs the cost need not be huge.

For those thinking about it, bite the bullet and do the full set. You'll be a better pilot at the end!:ok:

Perhaps one point which needs more emphasis is that all military aircrew are selected whereas pretty well anyone with the money who can pass a Class 1 medical can obtain a CPL....

There can be no logical reason to abandon the 2000/1500(1000) accreditation scheme of today.

Just read the other thread about ELCs no longer being made available for the ATPL theory course.

No Duff!? Anybody heard the definitive on this?

Anyone know what the deal is for those who have obtained a CPL (Frozen ATPL) through the Bridging Scheme (ie 4+1 exams) but are still waiting to get the 500hrs ME Multi-crew (having all the other requirements already?

Better get in a cockpit quickly me thinks...

JL:}

All of these issues point to the future requirement for RAF ME pilots to have ATPLs. If that truly is the case, rather than prohibiting the use of ELC in attaining the licence, they should be actively looking at ways of encouraging people to attaining the qualification; rather than having to meet the cost in toto as an organization, either through basic training or for those already CR.

GEMS award coming my way I reckon.

Just this once - please check your PM's.

Selected according to what criteria? Are they necessarily the same criteria that make safe & responsible civilian pilots?

You're not doing your ex-mil colleagues many favours in the already difficult civvy employment market by making comments like that....

As an ex-RAF Techie who once had to make the transition, I think some are missing the point. Despite the exemptions that RAF training and experience gave me, when it came to getting the civilian license, it was the employer who eventually called the shots. Licenses are the minimum legal requirement and few civilian operators operate at that level.

When we techies had to swap our CAA licenses for JAR 66 ones, in UK we had to take the exams that covered the differences. It was all in the name of "standardisation" - whatever that is. EASA certainly doesn't provide any universally accepted standard.

As regards which are best - military or civil - there's no such thing as best. The two spheres are simply equal but different.

In total agreement with Blacksheep's description of EASA's level playing field - it is now almost recommended to get a european Techies Licence as they dont have to go through the UK's hoops.

At one point I witnessed a dutch airline being told that the former NLA didn't want to start a list of partly qualified engineers and would instead issue full licences.
In UK you paid huge costs, took exams and argue'd to get a full licence, while in Holland you had to argue for a partial licence to be thrown at you! (Mind that the UK-CAA is the only self-funded Governmental Authority)

Also agreed - there is no best. Just those who become most familiar with either side.

Due to the "care" of the MOD to all its troops a few years ago - in failing to do what is being asked here - Military techies dont get any real help with the conversion and even if they manage to cross the bridge they still have to log 1 year of civil registered aircraft work before they get a Licence.

For more questions go to:
service leavers advice group

(MOD'S - Sorry about the advert but this fits here).

Trim Stab

To what criteria are military pilots selected? - well, hand-eye co-ordination, decision making under pressure, multi-tasking, physical robustness and reliability just to name a few. As an Officer (or NCO in the Army)side, they are selected and trained in leadership, management, communication and for an ability to self-analyze.

Many apply, but few are chosen, and fewer still pass the rigours of training - I would suggest to you that these traits would make them very responsible and safe pilots, and a very good bet in the civilian world.

BlindWingy
 

Agreed 100%, believe me as ex-military FJ pilot myself, now 20 years plus flying heavy metal, if asked I'll talk up the military pilot as much as I can. However most airlines will look at the ex military guy/girl with a Class 1 and an ATPL, and the 200 hour cadet with a Class 1 medical and a fATPL, and simply ask "who can I get to work for me for the least money?"

Yes, I expect thats true, especially in these tight times....however, what price can you put on reliability, experience and perhaps an ability to bring a bit more to the party than just an ability to fly?

I do hope there are some airlines out there that might be able to be a little more far-sighted - maybe a situation that might pick up when the general economic situation improves!

I left the RAF in '92 (yes, I know - KOS) with an ATPL gained with exemptions and was somewhat dismayed to read the back pages of Flight which contained several adverts from major carriers (including Cathay) stating that all applicants must hold an ATPL - gained without exemptions. I have no idea if that is still current practice but taking all the exams anyway if time etc permits is not a bad idea imho.

Good luck to all potential job hunters.

And where do you get the notion from that civilian pilots don't have those qualities and more? Amongst my acquaintances who are "just" civvy pilots are a former international rugby player, a former surgeon, and a former diplomat, as well as several who have held positions of responsibility in business. Others have come from very humble backgrounds and have made enormous personal sacrifices in order to obtain their qualifications, and then have worked their way up through GA flying many different aircraft types.

In my particular area of flying (bizjets) the CVs that usually get retained by the chief pilot are those who have extensive GA experience around Europe in something like a King Air - they are already familiar with every approach to every airfield, they know the names of most VORs and reporting points so are red-hot on the r/t, speak to a good level several languages and can deal with the idiosyncracies of controllers in many different countries, can plan their own routing and flightplans, know which are the best handling agents and can arrange handling themselves at every airfield, know which airfields have the cheapest fuel, know where to get the best met briefings from in several different languages, and know JAR/OPS inside out. Not many ex-military pilots have that sort of breadth of relevant experience, and the claim that ex-mil pilots have some sort of advantage because they are "reliable", or have superior hand-eye coordination is not likely to convince most chief pilots.

Makes you wonder where the FSTA reservists are going to come from. I mean, what self respecting civilian pilot wouild lower themselves to work with the military ......:mad:

Trimstab,

I suggest you re-read my post, I outlined a few more military pilot qualities than you quoted. I also did not say that civilian pilots had no desirable qualities. Where does your animosity come from? Did you get turned down? Anyway, I should let you know that attention to detail is also a highly desirable quality.

Trim Stab,

I can't argue with your Chief Pilot's viewpoint, but there is another aspect that shouldn't be forgotten:

Pilot in Hudson River Crash Flew Air Force Fighter Jets

http://www.foxnews.com/images/493036/1_64_pilot_320.jpg

Hmm, that's odd. Those are exactly the same psychometric testing criteria that were used to select ab-initio pilots at the last three airlines I worked at that actually took direct entry candidates. :rolleyes:

No argument here! Of course civilian pilots are selected, but unlike a military pilot, their selection process didn't last for 9-12 months before they even touched an aeroplane.

Blindwingy

Military pilots don't have any monopoly on the other qualities that you mentioned either.

If you don't want to believe me, then at your next interview just tell the chief pilot that because were in the RAF you have "proven superior hand-eye coordination", can "multi-task", can "communicate" and "self-analyse". I am sure he will be amazed that a potential copilot can do all that and fly a plane, and will instantly give you the job.

I have no animosity at all to the vast majority of ex-mil pilots who are realistic about their abilities/experience and the abilities/experience of their civilian colleagues. But those with the attitude that civilian pilots are just rich kids who only push buttons are better off staying in the RAF.

And likewise all those civilian pilots who think flying RAF Air Transport / AAR is exactly the same as flying in the civilian world would be best staying out of the RAF (including the Reserves) :E

I'll have two plates of nacho's, one family tub of popcorn and 2x seats, (aisle LHS row 9) for preferance to for me and this missus to watch this spectacle.

:D

Qantas A380 superjumbo full of holes | Herald Sun

There's no point arguing about the relative merits of civilian-trained and military-trained pilots as we will go round and round forever. Surely the point is this: it makes sense to give some credit to military pilots for their accumulated flying experience. Therefore I hope that the accreditation scheme survives in some form.

ELC's stopping towards ATPL for the RAF? AAC have not heard this, anything from the FAA?

SL

SL,

ELCs have already been stopped for ATPLs. Currently re engaging to rectify the situation. The Bristol Ground School thread has more details on the saga.

Cheers.