All of these issues point to the future requirement for RAF ME pilots to have ATPLs. If that truly is the case, rather than prohibiting the use of ELC in attaining the licence, they should be actively looking at ways of encouraging people to attaining the qualification; rather than having to meet the cost in toto as an organization, either through basic training or for those already CR.
GEMS award coming my way I reckon. Just this once - please check your PM's. |
is that all military aircrew are selected pretty well anyone with the money who can pass a Class 1 medical can obtain a CPL.... |
As an ex-RAF Techie who once had to make the transition, I think some are missing the point. Despite the exemptions that RAF training and experience gave me, when it came to getting the civilian license, it was the employer who eventually called the shots. Licenses are the minimum legal requirement and few civilian operators operate at that level.
When we techies had to swap our CAA licenses for JAR 66 ones, in UK we had to take the exams that covered the differences. It was all in the name of "standardisation" - whatever that is. EASA certainly doesn't provide any universally accepted standard. As regards which are best - military or civil - there's no such thing as best. The two spheres are simply equal but different. |
In total agreement with Blacksheep's description of EASA's level playing field - it is now almost recommended to get a european Techies Licence as they dont have to go through the UK's hoops.
At one point I witnessed a dutch airline being told that the former NLA didn't want to start a list of partly qualified engineers and would instead issue full licences. In UK you paid huge costs, took exams and argue'd to get a full licence, while in Holland you had to argue for a partial licence to be thrown at you! (Mind that the UK-CAA is the only self-funded Governmental Authority) Also agreed - there is no best. Just those who become most familiar with either side. Due to the "care" of the MOD to all its troops a few years ago - in failing to do what is being asked here - Military techies dont get any real help with the conversion and even if they manage to cross the bridge they still have to log 1 year of civil registered aircraft work before they get a Licence. For more questions go to: service leavers advice group (MOD'S - Sorry about the advert but this fits here). |
Trim Stab
To what criteria are military pilots selected? - well, hand-eye co-ordination, decision making under pressure, multi-tasking, physical robustness and reliability just to name a few. As an Officer (or NCO in the Army)side, they are selected and trained in leadership, management, communication and for an ability to self-analyze. Many apply, but few are chosen, and fewer still pass the rigours of training - I would suggest to you that these traits would make them very responsible and safe pilots, and a very good bet in the civilian world. |
BlindWingy
Agreed 100%, believe me as ex-military FJ pilot myself, now 20 years plus flying heavy metal, if asked I'll talk up the military pilot as much as I can. However most airlines will look at the ex military guy/girl with a Class 1 and an ATPL, and the 200 hour cadet with a Class 1 medical and a fATPL, and simply ask "who can I get to work for me for the least money?"
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Yes, I expect thats true, especially in these tight times....however, what price can you put on reliability, experience and perhaps an ability to bring a bit more to the party than just an ability to fly?
I do hope there are some airlines out there that might be able to be a little more far-sighted - maybe a situation that might pick up when the general economic situation improves! |
I left the RAF in '92 (yes, I know - KOS) with an ATPL gained with exemptions and was somewhat dismayed to read the back pages of Flight which contained several adverts from major carriers (including Cathay) stating that all applicants must hold an ATPL - gained without exemptions. I have no idea if that is still current practice but taking all the exams anyway if time etc permits is not a bad idea imho.
Good luck to all potential job hunters. |
Yes, I expect thats true, especially in these tight times....however, what price can you put on reliability, experience and perhaps an ability to bring a bit more to the party than just an ability to fly? In my particular area of flying (bizjets) the CVs that usually get retained by the chief pilot are those who have extensive GA experience around Europe in something like a King Air - they are already familiar with every approach to every airfield, they know the names of most VORs and reporting points so are red-hot on the r/t, speak to a good level several languages and can deal with the idiosyncracies of controllers in many different countries, can plan their own routing and flightplans, know which are the best handling agents and can arrange handling themselves at every airfield, know which airfields have the cheapest fuel, know where to get the best met briefings from in several different languages, and know JAR/OPS inside out. Not many ex-military pilots have that sort of breadth of relevant experience, and the claim that ex-mil pilots have some sort of advantage because they are "reliable", or have superior hand-eye coordination is not likely to convince most chief pilots. |
Makes you wonder where the FSTA reservists are going to come from. I mean, what self respecting civilian pilot wouild lower themselves to work with the military ......:mad:
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Trimstab,
I suggest you re-read my post, I outlined a few more military pilot qualities than you quoted. I also did not say that civilian pilots had no desirable qualities. Where does your animosity come from? Did you get turned down? Anyway, I should let you know that attention to detail is also a highly desirable quality. |
Trim Stab,
I can't argue with your Chief Pilot's viewpoint, but there is another aspect that shouldn't be forgotten: Pilot in Hudson River Crash Flew Air Force Fighter Jets http://www.foxnews.com/images/493036/1_64_pilot_320.jpg "OMG, I am terrified of flying but I would be happy to be a passenger on one of your aircraft!!" Melanie Wills in Bristol wrote on the wall of "Fans of Sully Sullenberger." "You have saved a lot of peoples lives and are a true hero!!" Passenger Joe Hart said Sullenberger "was phenomenal." "He landed it — I tell you what, the impact wasn't a whole lot more than a rear-end (collision). It threw you into the seat ahead of you. Both engines cut out and he actually floated it into the river," he said. |
To what criteria are military pilots selected? - well, hand-eye co-ordination, decision making under pressure, multi-tasking, physical robustness and reliability just to name a few. |
No argument here! Of course civilian pilots are selected, but unlike a military pilot, their selection process didn't last for 9-12 months before they even touched an aeroplane.
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Blindwingy
I suggest you re-read my post, I outlined a few more military pilot qualities than you quoted. I also did not say that civilian pilots had no desirable qualities. Where does your animosity come from? Did you get turned down? Anyway, I should let you know that attention to detail is also a highly desirable quality If you don't want to believe me, then at your next interview just tell the chief pilot that because were in the RAF you have "proven superior hand-eye coordination", can "multi-task", can "communicate" and "self-analyse". I am sure he will be amazed that a potential copilot can do all that and fly a plane, and will instantly give you the job. I have no animosity at all to the vast majority of ex-mil pilots who are realistic about their abilities/experience and the abilities/experience of their civilian colleagues. But those with the attitude that civilian pilots are just rich kids who only push buttons are better off staying in the RAF. |
are better off staying in the RAF |
I'll have two plates of nacho's, one family tub of popcorn and 2x seats, (aisle LHS row 9) for preferance to for me and this missus to watch this spectacle.
:D |
Qantas A380 superjumbo full of holes | Herald Sun
Richard Woodward, vice-president of the International Air Pilots' Federation, told the Herald Sun yesterday that the lesson from the near disaster was the value of an experienced flight crew. "There was a wealth of experience in the cockpit, even the lowest ranked officer on board had thousands of hours of experience in his former role as a military flying instructor," said Capt Woodward, himself an A380 pilot on leave from Qantas. As another senior pilot said: "It is bad enough for an engine to explode in mid-air let alone lose so many secondary systems". |
ELC's stopping towards ATPL for the RAF? AAC have not heard this, anything from the FAA?
SL |
SL,
ELCs have already been stopped for ATPLs. Currently re engaging to rectify the situation. The Bristol Ground School thread has more details on the saga. Cheers. |
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