Where will the ships come from to provide the amphibious operations, or are we only covering the Dover - Calais route?

I wouldnt say its on its last legs, although it will be very hard to keep it on until it original out of service date of 2020 ish. From what I understood the Harrier was broken due to it been made from composite and been overflown on ops. The Tornado like the MR2 it well over built which has allowed it to be extended well beyond its design flying hour life of 4000 hrs.

Cheers Sturb, Im glad of that , Good old British design built to last. If thats the case then its probably good we have the Tornado GR as the Typhoon is not fully capable of much yet.

Are you on drugs!

"The Tornado IDS is the baseline model that resulted from a 1968 feasibility study undertaken by the Belgian, British, Canadian, Dutch, Italian and West German governments for an advanced warplane to be designed, developed and built as collaborative venture with the object of providing the air forces of the partner nations with a STOL warplane able to undertake the close air support, battlefield interdiction, long-range interdiction, counter-air attack, air-superiority, interception and air defence, reconnaissance and naval strike roles.

Belgium and Canada withdrew at an early date, being followed by the Netherlands at a later date; this left Italy, the UK and West Germany to persevere with project definition from May 1969 and development from July 1970. The resulting MRCA- 75 (Multi-Role Combat Aircraft for 1975) was designed as a high-performance type with a fly-by-wire control system and advanced avionics for extremely accurate navigation and safe flight at supersonic speeds and very low levels in all weathers, this being deemed the only way to ensure pinpoint day/night first-pass attacks with a heavy (and highly diverse) warload against a variety of well defended targets. Design and development of the MRCA-75 was entrusted to Panavia, which was created in 1969 as a joint venture by Aeritalia (now Alenia), BAC (now BAe) and MBB (now DASA), while the parallel engine consortium was created as Turbo-Union by Fiat, MTU and Rolls-Royce. The two main subcontractors were IWKA-Mauser for the cannon and Elliott for the electronics, and government control was provided by the NAMMA organization established in 1970 to supervise each country's contribution, which was fixed at 42.5% each by the UK and West Germany, and 15% by Italy.

Leon Jabachjabicz

Not sure if your are saying it was not built to last or its not a 'good old British design'. I would agree that it was a multi national design, but it was built to last thats for sure.

I think you may be taking a light hearted and throwaway comment a bit too seriously.

Feelings are running high tonight, it's time for everyone to calm the **** down methinks!

As the E3 is part of NAWF I wonder if that has anything to do with it?
NATO AWACS - Organization Chart

Sturb199

The ones I flew for 1,800hrs+ certainly weren't built to last - that's why there was a fatigue index issue!

LJ :ok:

Devil is in the detail !
 

Having now had a chance to look through the full paper the following leapt out:
2.D.5

• efficiencies and improvements in military training, including the increased use of simulators for air-crew
• 
  cutting over £300 million per year by 2014/15 of service and civilian personnel allowances
  

Less flying hours and less allowances. I wonder which ones will get the chop!

"It could have been worse".
Spin mechants win when we feel thus.
The spin slime, leak the stuff over a few weeks so we all get accustomed, the anger dissipates, so when the poli gets up the worst of the anger has blown over.
Poli uses weasel words such as "paradigm" and "moving forward" and escape relatively unscathed, replete in the knowledge that at least they will be OK with their retirement benefits.

I am fuelled with drink tonight but lets Strike ,I am praying tonight the people that made decisions will regret the biggest blunder in the nations history, tommorow they will get away with it as public anger will take over. :D

RUMPUNCH

Too bloody right,had a few myself,how to go about it? people have short memories,70 yrs is in the ice age to them,thanks to the commie teachers of the 60&70s.

Sentinel seems slightly strange - another £1b down the drain along with with the £3.5b on Nimrod

You are a cock

Rumpunch
 

Bloody sorry mate, it's a total stitch up.

Hope your hangover isn't too bad this morning & that light will eventually emerge in the long tunnel ahead.

Spock

With regard to the NAEWF & E3 question, I was recently informed that 5 of the 8 were bought with NATO money anyway in the first place under the 75%-25% type of deal that NATO is well known for.

And there was me thinking for years that Maggie had taken a tough decision, kicked Nimwacs into the weeds and bought the right platform out of our own cash, outright.

I think my words, when I found this out were along the lines of:

"What? ....The.... crafty.... b:mad:ds....."

So, we cant bin it, so long as NATO says that it is MMR. And, they're not likely to change that. Not for the foreseeable anyway.

Why, as an Island nation, are we ditching the ASW capability from the RAF?? This sends a clear message to any would be foe, that you can creep up on the UK to within Merlin range (not far) and launch a missile attack on the UK? Why is the MR4A capability being lost? The Russians must be rubbing their hands with glee?? Are we intending to purchase Orions downstream??

Our country is a mess. Literally a mess. If you told me we had to raise taxes to fund a defence programme, I genuinely would support the initiative. I guess I'm in a minority.

In reality we are raising taxes and cutting budgets to fund unemployable work-shy slobs living in ghettos, because sorting out our social welfare system falls into the 'too-hard' category and will lose votes.

What's going to happen to the aircraft taken out of service? Are they really going to be scrapped - taken down the breakers yard?, sold? or put into storage?

Some have seen better days but MRA4 is 'new' and Sentinal is nearly new. Come five years time when the next defence review is carried out, these assets might be required again. If we had to build from new, we wouldn't really want to wait another 10 years for resurected Nimrod. Even buying something from the US is going to take time. Refurbishing from storage would seem to be a cheaper and quicker option (and it's not as if we'll have no where to keep them :hmm:).

Leon Jabachjabicz
Mm well the ones I have put in 19000 maintenance hours on, are built like brick privvys and whilst they may have had some fatigue issues on the F3 fleet the GR fleet is still marching along.

Any idea when the specfics will be comming out?

And when does this come into effect? Have, for example, the Harriers stopped flying immediately?

Any truth in this?
 

Does anyone know if there is any truth in this?
British Military Aviation Lists-- B.M.A.L News

Interesting reading, but judging by the number of typos and spelling mistakes, not credible....

We were briefed yesterday that Harriers would be grounded by April next year, which fits with the date in CF's link

Jabba,

Thanks for the explanation ref E-3s.

What would happen if we simply said "We can't afford to run them any more, have the airframes, game over"? They're not going to kick us out of NATO over it, are they?

TOTD:

Nah, they wouldnt do that.

Where do you think the UK funding comes from to run them? They're a NATO asset, despite wearing a pink and blue roundel. This is what I meant. We bought three out of the 8, NATO paid for the rest.

There is so much smoke and mirrors that you wouldnt believe it, you really wouldnt.

Jabba,

You're right, especially about the smoke and mirrors - what worries me is that if they haven't done the sums right, there may be further cuts needed to achieve the required savings. I wonder how much worse it may get...

TOTD

If I were you, I'd take your claim that the UK E-3s were part-funded by NATO with an extremely large pinch of salt. The UK paid for its E-3Ds and does not contribute to the NAEW O&S budget - the UK's contribution is "in kind".
That's apart from the fact we only bought 7.
sv

Read the RN and JHC briefing note if you need to.

Merlin will go to CHF despite CAS's cheap shot.

I offer this perspective to anyone seeking solid/specific answers to detailed SDSR questions.....

The decision making process is simple....

The medium level boys (Wg Cdr and Sqn Ldr) write/research lots of papers on options, e.g. not introducing MRA4, which include cost and capability implications.

The big boys (3/4* and politicians) sit in a room and decide which options to impliment - BUT THEY DON'T TELL ANYONE FURTHER DOWN THE CHAIN WHAT THOSE DECISIONS ARE, IN CASE IT LEAKS BEFORE THE MINISTER/PM GETS TO ANNOUNCE IT TO PARLIAMENT/THE MEDIA.

About 30 minutes before the briefing by the Minister/PM the players in the system (e.g. Stn Cdr ISK, RAF Manning) open their sealed envelopes and read the contents, before saying.."oh my god".

So all the people who sort out the detail, RAF Manning, Stn Cdrs, Sqn Cdrs have no time to do any prior preparation, and will spend the next 2 months playing catch up.....

Ask all the questions you want, just don't expect any solid answers for quite a while yet, they have not been worked out so far!! :ugh:



That is how I see the situation based on previous recent experience, I do not work in a Gp HQ or MOD.... Standing by to be contradicted.

View from across the pond, courtesy of the streetwiseprofessor

A very wishy-washy official statement from the US DoD:

Statement by Press Secretary Geoff Morrell on the U.K. Strategic Defense and Security Review
<http://www.defense.gov/releases/release.aspx?releaseid=13986>


Presumably it's a brave person who points out that with F-35B now being developed purely for the US Marine Corps to replace their AV-8Bs, they're more than likely going to end up with no 'fast air' for their Amphibious Ready Groups in the future. Welcome to the club!

HMS Prince of Wales............ Rather apt isn't it, full of worldly dreams but f all up top..

Wouldn't it be wise to rather than scrap HMS Ark Royal immedietly as such, to mothball it, so (god forbid) in times of need it is 'on hand' to bolster the Navy, or if the other carrier goes 'tech', Ark Royal can take its place?

Personally i think getting rid of the Harriers or rather a carrier with no Harriers on it is absurd,hyperthetically would it cost a collosal amount to maintain a sqn of Harriers for useage on the 'existing' carrier still so it contains some kind of firepower to defend itself at least aswell as supporting missions where needed until the advent of the JSF etc (my view again is why not buy the cheaper F18)??

My grandfather (was in the Navy) would be turning in his grave to see how the forces and in particular the Navy is now a shadow of its former self. I can understand cuts if its essential but it kinda takes the p*ss really. Only my pennies worth & apologise if this kind of reply has been posted already.

SDSR - National Alert Status Reviewed.
 

The English are feeling the pinch in relation to recent terrorist threats, and have therefore raised their security level from "Miffed" to "Peeved". Soon, though, security levels may be raised yet again to "Irritated" or even "A Bit Cross". The English have not been "A Bit Cross" since the blitz in 1940, when tea supplies nearly ran out. Terrorists have been re-categorized from "Tiresome" to "A Bloody Nuisance". The last time the British issued a "Bloody Nuisance" warning level was in 1588, when threatened by the Spanish Armada.

The Scots have raised their threat level from "Pissed Off" to "Let's get the Bastards". They don't have any other levels. This is the reason they have been used on the front line of the British army for the last 300 years.

The French government announced yesterday that it has raised its terror alert level from "Run" to "Hide". The only two higher levels in France are "Collaborate" and "Surrender". The rise was precipitated by a recent fire that destroyed France's white flag factory, effectively paralyzing the country's military capability.

Italy has increased the alert level from "Shout Loudly and Excitedly" to "Elaborate Military Posturing". Two more levels remain: "Ineffective Combat Operations" and "Change Sides".

The Germans have increased their alert state from "Disdainful Arrogance" to "Dress in Uniform and Sing Marching Songs". They also have two higher levels: "Invade a Neighbor" and "Lose".

Belgians, on the other hand, are all on holiday as usual; the only threat they are worried about is NATO pulling out of Brussels.

The Spanish are all excited to see their new submarines ready to deploy. These beautifully designed subs have glass bottoms so the new Spanish navy can get a really good look at the old Spanish navy.

Americans meanwhile, and as usual, are carrying out pre-emptive strikes on all of their allies "just in case".

Canada doesn't have any alert levels.

New Zealand has raised its security levels - from "baaa" to "BAAAA". Due to continuing defense cutbacks, New Zealand has only one more level of escalation, which is "I hope Australia will come and rescue us".

Australia, meanwhile, has raised its security level from "No worries" to "She'll be alright, mate". Three more escalation levels remain: "Crikey!",

"I think we'll need to cancel the barbie this weekend" and "The barbie is cancelled". So far no situation has ever warranted use of the final escalation level.

A gamble too far?
 

Defence cuts: The Royal Navy’s decision to bet its future on aircraft carriers could be a gamble too far

Spending Review 2010: Military chiefs fight cut backs to private education for children - Telegraph, 2:14PM GMT 31 Oct 2010

Hints as to the replacement plans for the GR4 force with F-35C, and how the numbers will be determined...

DOD Buzz: Drones to Influence U.K. F-35C Buy

The development of next generation combat UAVs along with the health of the Royal Air Force’s current fighter fleet will be key factors in determining how many F-35C Lightning II Joint Strike Fighters the United Kingdom buys in the coming years, a senior British defense official said today.

“We know the number of F-35s we need” for a carrier air wing but have yet to decide on how many ground based JSFs are needed to perform “deep and persistent” missions, Gen. Nicholas Houghton, vice chief of the British defense staff said during a presentation in Washington sponsored by the Center for Strategic and International Studies.

To this end, British officials will weigh progress made in fielding unmanned combat air vehicles (UCAVs) in the next five years against the service lives of the island nation’s fleet of existing fighters when determining Britain’s F-35 buy. These questions will ultimately be answered when the U.K. conducts its next strategic defense revue in 2015, according to the general.

The Royal Air Force plans to eventually operate fly a fleet of Eurofighter Typhoons and F-35s. The Typhoon is already replacing the RAF’s F3 air superiority-variant Tornadoes while the GR4 ground attack variant will eventually be replaced by F-35s.

Meanwhile, a desire for increased range, payload and interoperability with the United States and French navies combined with concerns about rising costs led to last month’s decision by the United Kingdom to swap its planned buy of 138 short take-off and vertical landing F-35B-model JSFs for an unspecified number of F-35C carrier variants, Houghton said.

The desire to keep costs down and get more performance out of U.K. F-35s combined with the fact that British naval aviators could be training for carrier operations on U.S. and French aircraft carriers for the next decade “played into the discussion and ultimately the decision” by London to trade JSF variants, Houghton said.

All of this comes amid reports that the beleaguered fighter program may need as much as $2.5 to $5 billion in additional funding and will face several years worth of delays, with the B-version of the plane slipping by as much as three years.

Meanwhile, more good news.

Pentagon Said to See Higher F-35 Costs, More Delays - BusinessWeek

Interesting IF true on Dave-B delays - harder than ever to see why Dave-B should survive.

S41