PPRuNe Forums

PPRuNe Forums (https://www.pprune.org/)
-   Military Aviation (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation-57/)
-   -   "No - really - I wasn't chopped - honestly!" (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/427238-no-really-i-wasnt-chopped-honestly.html)

clunckdriver 13th Sep 2010 17:49

During Harvard training in the RCAF we had quite a few make large fatal dents in the ground, after a spate of these my instructor and I were debriefing after a flight when I mentioned that quite a few guys had quit and gone back to civy street and how they must really miss farming/teaching/ working at the familly store ect, my instructor looked at me and said words to the effect,"Your doing fine with you flying but sometimes I think your as dumb as a friggin post! They have quit because they are **** scared you bloody mooron!" This was my introduction to the "twitch" Due to a background of working in a hospital autopsy room as a kid I was the guy who had to do most of the IDs on these guys if there was enough left so it came as a total shock to me that they would quit what was to me the best time of my life. On a different note, if one reads the bios of many of the aces, some had problems in training but turned out to be the best of the best, this includes many ex US Army Air Corps types who joined the RCAF/RAF, later transfered back to the USAAC and became senior comanders, go figure!

AYTCH 13th Sep 2010 17:58

To CharlieGolf - Post #19
 
He did exist. Was in the days when the Bona Mates did phases of I believe 3 months then onto another phase. He would just get to the point at the end of a phase where he considered himself OK but when back onto next phase, he said it was like he had never done it and so realised he would kill himself, for sure, eventually; hence the balls to fess up and he then went F-4s, back in Germany 2 ATAF actually.

Yes, a brave decision but good for him. He flew F-4s for a while then TP and last I heard was doing Typhoon TP stuff somewhere near Munich (though that was a few years ago) but do not know what he is up to today.

pamac51 13th Sep 2010 19:58

Nimes Det
 
Neptunus Rex - was that a detachment that required the Stn Cdr to fly to France with a bag full of francs to clear up the bills and keep a jnr Tech out of jail?

Pontius Navigator 13th Sep 2010 21:18

clunk, very true. I was talking to a nav stude during a hold period in the sim, computer reload or some such.

Turned out he had VW from the RN as he had heard Naval O's talking about Sea Kings ditching and rolling etc and decided it was too dangerous. Maybe true, may be his excuse for being chopped.

Never found out how far he got through nav training.

Dan Winterland 14th Sep 2010 02:01

There was a jolly nice chap on my senior course on JPs. He was sharper than a pair of compasses and he went to Valley with everyone expecting great things of him. But he VW'd half way through citing that he found it all a bit dull and wasn't really challenged by being a pilot. No one believed he would go - but he did. Last heard of making squillions in the city.

fincastle84 14th Sep 2010 07:49

pamac51
 

was that a detachment that required the Stn Cdr to fly to France with a bag full of francs to clear up the bills and keep a jnr Tech out of jail?

No it wasn't. The one you refer to was Nimes in '82. I spent a very uncomfortable afternoon on the 'phone to some very senior officers in both HQSTC & the Paris embassy while the Stn Cdr was sitting on the pan waiting for me to collect the cash. I also had a couple of loyal siggies guarding the guilty b*****d in order to stop himself from shortening his own life span. The said person was an MT fitter who was along for the ride as a favour from Nasty for servicing his car.

I learnt about flying from that..............

26er 14th Sep 2010 08:25

My FTS course in 50/51 had as our flight commander on Harvards, a very steady chap with DSO, DFC & Bar (Flt Lt Geof Bray). We all wanted to go on multis and eventually a few took the Wellington OCU route, and one even disappeared to the kipper fleet where before being used as a driver airframe one had to learn real navigation on white painted Lancasters. But about two months before graduation Geoff was posted and the new guy, Flt Lt Dean Jones, was a fighter boy through and through. There was a complete change of attitude. He arranged for six Meteors of his old unit to visit us at Ternhill, the smell of avtag was injected into our veins and seven of us went to Valley to become starry eyed killers.

What became of Plt Offs Perry, Smallwood, Price and Lawrence and Sgt Pilots Jones and White?

Trim Stab 14th Sep 2010 10:35

Of those who get chopped, what proportion stay in the services?

Presumably if somebody is chopped, but retrains to a different speciality within the services, then it can be assumed that they joined for a military career. If they promptly leave - then presumably they just joined to learn to fly?

minigundiplomat 14th Sep 2010 10:47

I used to sit next to the son of the then CAS, when I was going through Groundschool at Shawbury. He had been chopped from Valley and streamed rotary. I think FJ had been his dream as he left soon after to work in the city.

I hope he is doing well, he was a good guy and determined his father's rank cast the minimum of shadow over his own performance.

Hamish 123 14th Sep 2010 11:21

Trim,

I got chopped on JPs ("Nice aeros, but the nearer you get to the ground, the worse you get" was the gist of my chop ride debrief), and I left as soon as possible after being withdrawn from flying training. I didn't think that I could stand being around those that could do what I had always wanted to do since I was a boy. I now regret that hasty decision, as I loved being in the RAF, and was proud to be a commissioned officer. If I have one criticism of that time post-chop, it was that no one made any effort to try and assess if I was really doing the right thing. I think that I could easily have been pursuaded to go nav, or try another branch.

Of course, there's always the possibility that I wasn't deemed to be a great loss to the officer cadre . . . .

BANANASBANANAS 14th Sep 2010 12:10

I was 'chopped' - well, I prefer the term 'medically suspended' from FJ training on the Hawk at Valley in '83. No complaints. The RAF had given me 2 goes at Farnborough on the spin table and doing all the aerobatic Hunter stuff with the superb Mike Bagshaw.

At the end of the second spell at Farnborough I returned to Valley and was sent up with an ex Lightning jock (JF) for some SCT. The deal was, if I could prevent the contents of my stomach from decorating the inside of the canopy I could continue on the course. We came back with multiple +6 g readings on the accelerometer and 3 blue bags bursting to capacity. Game over.

Whilst I knew what was coming I could still smile at the entry JF made in the Auth sheets when we signed in - 'DNCO - Student Cat 5'

Still, it all worked out well in the end. I now have the best seat in the house on a B744F.:ok:

BEagle 14th Sep 2010 12:20

Only +6g? He can't have been trying! JF pulled a lot more than that one dark night in his Lightning - realising something wasn't quite right about his intercept, he pulled his head out of the B-scope to see nothing but black on the attitude indicator; the nadir star was dead centre and slowly rotating. Too fast for airbrakes, idle/idle and PULL....snoooooze....wake up climbing slowly through about 400 ft with the speed dropping through 200KIAS. Burners, recover, then home for new trousers!

But his 'little event' provided valuable fatigue data for the rest of Lightning fleet - and it seems that they had more life left in them than BWoS had previously thought.

Apparently he had lace marks from his turning-trousers imprinted on his legs for weeks afterwards.

Matt Skrossa 14th Sep 2010 13:34

Reminds me of the RN and RAF chopped pilots on their JATCC at RAF Shawbury, neither of whom should have been chopped (naturally!!) They spent so long bemoaning their fate that they both knew each other’s story verbatim. They hold court in the bar and would tell anyone who expressed a vague interest about not only their own story of how the military had missed out on a future Red Arrow/Sea Harrier pilot, but also the other guys story too. One day in advance sim the RAF chap stood up halfway through a busy slot, took his headset off and with the words 'I don't want to do this crap anymore' walked out of the sim. He was found in his room about 15 mins later, and about 30 mins after was (via the Station Commander) off the station. Without his mate to banter with the RN bloke was chopped a week or so later. Moral of the story... it is a big big disappointment getting chopped, but if you don't move on you'll continue to fail.

luffers79 14th Sep 2010 17:21

Donīt push your kids too far !!
 
I had a student at RAF Valley who was a very poor pilot & had great difficulty flying the Vampire T11. Yet he was a wonderful guy/officer (Course Leader). I gave him extra hours instruction (claiming an instructional Dual flight had only lasted 50 minutes - whereas it had lasted 60 or 65 minutes) & then, finally, suggested a change of Instructor might help. It didnīt !! He was eventually paraded in front of the C.O. to be suspended. But before the CO started to talk he said, "Sir, I know exactly why I am here & itīs the Happiest Day of my Life !! Now I can go home & tell my father (an ex RAF Group Captain pilot) & say, "Father, Iīm NO BLOODY GOOD. I CANīT FLY !!!!!!. All my life youīve told me Iīm going to be a pilot ... & I HATED the idea !! But I love the RAF - & can I PLEASE stay in as an Administrator, Sir" !! (He did !!). :)

4Greens 14th Sep 2010 17:51

The word 'Chopped' itself sums up the flying training system. Only beaten by a 'scrub check' in my day. I passed so not biased.

luffers79 14th Sep 2010 19:37

It takes all types ....... !!
 
During my time at RAF Heany in S. Rhodesia, a fellow student had just completed a NIGHT cross country exercise with his instructor. They flew to points A,B, & C & then returned to base. Another 3 different turning points were given to the student & he was told to go off again - SOLO this time - & call on the radio when over each turning point. His radio calls were received on time by the control tower. Next morning the overnight local police security patrol reported that a Harvard aircraft had been noticed that had its engine running - & with all its lights off in a remote corner of the (grass) airfield during the night, for about an hour ?? - Very unusual ?? It hadnt been noticed by Air Traffic Control that he hadnt actually taken off !! He had made his radio calls on time - but he didnt even leave the ground !!. He said the trip went well to his instructor. Scared of flying SOLO at night. Suspended immediately. :uhoh:

Captain Sand Dune 15th Sep 2010 05:30


The word 'Chopped' itself sums up the flying training system.
The word "litigation" sums up flying training in the ADF pretty well today.


During my time at RAF Heany in S. Rhodesia, a fellow student had just completed a NIGHT cross country exercise with his instructor. They flew to points A,B, & C & then returned to base. Another 3 different turning points were given to the student & he was told to go off again - SOLO this time - & call on the radio when over each turning point. His radio calls were received on time by the control tower. Next morning the overnight local police security patrol reported that a Harvard aircraft had been noticed that had its engine running - & with all its lights off in a remote corner of the (grass) airfield during the night, for about an hour ?? - Very unusual ?? It hadnt been noticed by Air Traffic Control that he hadnt actually taken off !! He had made his radio calls on time - but he didnt even leave the ground !!. He said the trip went well to his instructor. Scared of flying SOLO at night. Suspended immediately.
:D
Sounds like the PNG students at Point Cook (before some egotistical senior officer abandoned it!:ugh:).
Apparently one of them launched on his solo medium level navex and orbitted behind a range of hills (You Yangs, SW of Melbourne) giving position reports. I think he got discovered by a staff shepherd aircraft.:ooh:

BEagle 15th Sep 2010 07:32

Occasionally, the 'staff shepherd' can get a bit of a surprise...

Back in the early 1970s, a student at one UK FTS was thought to be rather timid about low level navigation and was constantly being told that he was too high during his dual trips.

So when he was sent off on a solo LL navex, a staff chase aircraft set off just after him....

The student turned out to be very far from being timid at low level and was right down in the weeds for his entire trip - far lower than the staff pilot was prepared to fly!

MrBernoulli 15th Sep 2010 08:55


.... what's the best way to be given the news?
"Have you ever considered a career in Modern Dance Choreography, Bloggs?"

teeteringhead 15th Sep 2010 09:03


what's the best way to be given the news?
... traditionally it's:

"Wot does yer mother call you Bloggs?"

"Nigel Sir"

"Well Nigel, yer chopped!"

ACW599 15th Sep 2010 09:22

Or the variant form:

"What's your mother's Christian name, Bloggs?"

"Betty, Sir"

"Well, Betty Bloggs's son, you're chopped".

frodo_monkey 15th Sep 2010 09:28

Probably apocryphal, but the best one I heard (and I suspect it would be from Valley):

QFI: "Bloggs, this is how much capacity you need to be a fast-jet pilot in the Royal Air Force."

(draws large 18" square on whiteboard)

"This is how much capacity you have."

(draws 1" square inside previous 18" square)

"Bloggs, you will never be a fast-jet pilot."

Cue Bloggs probably blubbing, and with good reason!

Pontius Navigator 15th Sep 2010 09:42

The Vulcan, allegedly a 4-jet advanced trainer for pilots that couldn't be let out on their own. Anyway this u/t copilot couldn't hack it and had the one-sided sympathy interview with the CI.

Later, same stude, spitting feathers, is clearing his room in the mess - yes his posting was that quick - slung his OCU notes in the dustbin.

He then had a second one-sided and less sympathetic interview with the CI.

Dan Winterland 15th Sep 2010 16:24

How I got to hear I wasn't going to be a Fighter Pilot.

Boss: "Well Plt Off Winterland, you can either be a truckie or a smoking hole on a hillside. Your choice".

Me: ''Er, I'll be a truckie''.

Boss: "Good choice".

airborne_artist 15th Sep 2010 16:46


Self-suspensions are equally rare
I was that aviator. About half-way through BFT(H) on 705 at Culdrose I decided I'd gone far enough. I didn't really like the donkey being turned off in a helo - there's little enough keeping the dammed thing flying without removing the power-source, but I was a pretty crap baby officer, in all reality, with far too little life experience having gone from boarding school to Dartmouth with only eight months in between.

It cost me Ģ350 to get out. I tried asking to be re-streamed as an Hydrographer, but they insisted I re-did all/some of BRNC, and I wouldn't have it.

It wasn't a totally negative experience of life in uniform. Less than 18 months later I was a badged part-time Hooligan, and thus became (I think) the first BRNC grad to wear a pair of Stirling's wings. Two hundred and seventy-three started my Selection and nine passed :E

On much reflection I was too immature at nineteen/twenty for what I had chosen. If I'd done things the other way about, and headed for the RN after a few years in a beige beret I reckon I'd have hacked it more easily.

I wasn't a bad aviator - my last trip was with Trevor L******d (then a trapper) and he was good enough to give me an A- for the ride, but I just wasn't enough of an adult at the time for all that went with it.

BEagle 15th Sep 2010 16:56

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/w.jpg

Fg Off Winterland found the co-pilot's seat of large aircraft much more to his liking........;)

Neptunus Rex 15th Sep 2010 17:06

Good one Beags!
With those attributes, The Hutt should have been on Shacks.

cornish-stormrider 15th Sep 2010 17:50

beags, that is mighty funny for an old git - now do tell. When Star Wars was released back in 77 did you get an OAP discount?

To all those who took being chopped like men, found a new niche and made a name for themselves well done.

To all those who got chopped and whined like a bitch about it, at least you had the chance to try, got some stick time before you were chopped.

There are thousands out here that would have killed for the chance to try.


Me included - apparently the RAF doesn't recruit speccy blind gits as pilots - as my last instructor pilot said to me - "tis a shame youre a blind one chubby, you're not totally ******* inept at this aviating malarkey"

I take it as a compliment, I just wish I could remember his name...

BEagle 15th Sep 2010 19:13


beags, that is mighty funny for an old git - now do tell. When Star Wars was released back in 77 did you get an OAP discount?
Cheeky sod - the large, hairy orange creature was a good squadron mate of mine - now flying airliners in the Orient.

Actually, I have far better memories of 1977 than 'Star Wars'. After Aircrew Reselection interviews at Biggin, I asked for a holding slot on the unit rather than lingering around the OM like a bad smell. Which was quite fun. Playing blunties was rather enjoyable at times, plus the unit permanent staff were a cheerful bunch, unlike some of the OASC miseries.

One happy day I was told that I'd been reselected to Vulcans and that this would be preceded by a short refresher course on the JP at Leeming. So, on Boat Race day, I packed all my worldly possessions into the car (again - but the MG Midget I'd had at whilst at Wittering on 58 Sqn had been replaced by a Fiat 128SL coupe by then) and set off across London for the A1.

SORF Leeming was huge fun; top banter from various Wg Cdrs refreshing before taking up Sqn Cdr slots and much rushing about Yorkshire at nought foot six! Bugger all 'lead in' for the Tin Triangle, but epic fun! A few weeks later it was back down the A1 to Sunny Scampton (in a little more comfort as the Fiat 128SL Coupe had been replaced by an Opel Manta Berlinetta) - and into the rather dour Officers Mess. A few weeks later I popped into the bar for a quick pre-prandial beer and fell into conversation with a Plt Off navigator, who told me that he and his 2 chums were looking for a 4th to share a house. All thoughts of dinner forgotten, we drove to his place and the 4 of us were soon in the local pub. Next day some paperwork, quickly signed by the boss, then I moved out over the Easter weekend.

Next followed 2 of the best years of my undistinguished RAF career! So thank you to the staff of the Buccaneer OCU for having chopped me, releasing me to the extremely enjoyable lifestyle of a late-1970s Vulcan pilot!

Now godfather to said Plt Off navigator's son!

Pontius Navigator 15th Sep 2010 19:48


Originally Posted by BEagle (Post 5936791)
I popped into the bar for a quick pre-prandial beer

Ah, those were the days. Even earlier, before the OCU moved, we often popped into the bar for a pre-prandial and oozed out of the bar around 1.30
INTO BROAD SUNLIGHT.

The bar was so dark it was easy to forget it was a lunchtime session.

Chimbu chuckles 15th Sep 2010 20:52

26er


My FTS course in 50/51 had as our flight commander on Harvards, a very steady chap with DSO, DFC & Bar (Flt Lt Geof Bray). We all wanted to go on multis and eventually a few took the Wellington OCU route, and one even disappeared to the kipper fleet where before being used as a driver airframe one had to learn real navigation on white painted Lancasters. But about two months before graduation Geoff was posted and the new guy, Flt Lt Dean Jones, was a fighter boy through and through. There was a complete change of attitude. He arranged for six Meteors of his old unit to visit us at Ternhill, the smell of avtag was injected into our veins and seven of us went to Valley to become starry eyed killers.

What became of Plt Offs Perry, Smallwood, Price and Lawrence and Sgt Pilots Jones and White?
26er Plt Off Perry is my father. He flew the Meatbox and Vampire, bailed out of one into the Bristol Channel (if memory serves). Emigrated to Australia in mid 50s and joined the RAAF where he flew Lincoln (operationally in Malaya) and C47s among others. Joined TAA in 1961, QF in 1966 and retired from QF on the 747-200 in 1987.

He is alive and well...and recently became a Great Grandfather:ok:

PM me if you would like his email addy.

madlandrover 15th Sep 2010 21:34


I was a pretty crap baby officer, in all reality, with far too little life experience having gone from boarding school to Dartmouth with only eight months in between.
Much the same here, albeit a few years later on. Chopped at the end of EFT (low level nav a bit iffy, I tended to sit and watch the world go by...) and learnt a lesson or 2 about the process. Now teaching PPL/CPL/ME etc and understanding what's so annoying about an indecisive student!!

parabellum 15th Sep 2010 23:27

A bit of education please. I 'did' Biggin Hill in 1964 so I am familiar with Aircrew Aptitude testing but what is Aircrew Re-Selection, is it just a 'career path adjustment' exercise or do you have to do all the tests all over again? (Ex Pongo, so never came across it before BEags post).

Lou Scannon 15th Sep 2010 23:45

I often think back some fifty years and wonder what happened to some of the really good chaps at ITS and flying training who, in the opinion of the directing staff, should be excused all further excitement.(In later years and with more experience I would have scrubbed some of the staff!)).

John Rothwell, Chas Hobbs at ITS. Chris Dent, Mike Banks and others at Syerston.

Hope they all made it out of the RAF.

Rakshasa 16th Sep 2010 07:09

I worked very briefly with lad a few years ago who had the misfortune to come down with meningitis while holding for Valley and then had medical complications that put an end to any hope of a flying career. Must be bloody awful to wonder what might have been.

BEagle 16th Sep 2010 08:48

parabellum, aircrew re-selection didn't require any further aptitude testing, although we were asked to trial a couple of prototype tests under development by the trick-cyclists. This wasn't subterfuge as the test papers bore no names or references.

It was mainly a series of interviews, attitude assessments and board reviews. Whilst I (and others) were there after bonging the Bucc OCU, other mates from the Lightning and Harrier OCUs were also there, together with people from the whole spectrum of RAF aircrew training - including those who'd been chooped before solo-ing on the Chipmunk. The ex-Harrier mate could fly the jet fine, but told us that he was cr@p at navigating - his 'heading and time' flying on the JP, Gnat and Hunter had been so accurate that he'd always been scored highly, but they only found out that his 'free' navigation wasn't up to snuff when he was on the Harrier. But he was re-selected to the F4 OCU which suited him just fine.

Some took the option to leave, whilst others opted for a branch change.

Normally the first few interviews took place soon after arrival; you were then supposed to go on gardening leave or hang around the Officers Mess whilst the board did its work - this could take weeks. However, I marched into my bosses office and told him that I wanted something useful to do, so I had a few weeks of enjoyable bluntness acting as Dep OC GD Flt and Dep Families Officer. The latter was quite fun as I used to infuriate the Barrack Warden by being very lenient on march-outs. I dismissed a large stain on the floor of some Wg Cdr's bedroom carpet as being 'normal wear and tear' and the Barrack Warden nearly went into low earth orbit.....then I found the Wg Cdr's wife on her hands and knees scrubbing the kitchen floor, so I merely told the Barrack Warden "Kitchen - fine" because I didn't think it fitting for senior officers' wives to have to scrub floors just to pass a march out. Neither did I take more than a cursory glance at her cooker. Power is great fun when you can abuse it for the benefit of others! But when the real Families Officer came back from leave, she was 'rather surprised' at what I'd done :)

We 'reselectees' were full Mess Members, of course. One day there was a vote about when Dining-In nights should be held. Many of the bean-stealers wanted them on Thursdays, so they could slink off home with their hangovers on Fridays. Of course we all turned up at the Mess Meeting and voted firmly for Friday night Dining-Ins - the beanstealers were livid but the PMC thought it was highly amusing and announced that Dining-In nights would continue to be held on Fridays...:E

Fitter2 16th Sep 2010 09:40

Yes, Beags, the conscious abuse of power in a righteous cause can give more satisfaction than most things the service life can inflict. :ok:

Fareastdriver 16th Sep 2010 09:54

There is no point in having power unless you can abuse it!

Neptunus Rex 16th Sep 2010 10:02

Quite right BEags.

At Honington in the early '70s, accommodation was split between the main Officers' Mess building and some grotty huts at the back. There were several beanstealers living in the splendid rooms in the main Mess. Then I was appointed Mess Secretary. I checked the Warning In/Out book, and found that the beanstealers were, on average, spending over 30% of the time away from the Mess. I drafted a points system, whereby the bachelor officers were awarded points according to rank, seniority and the number of weeks living in the huts. Married officers - nil points. The PMC and Staish approved, so the beanstealers were evicted and several happy bachelors took up residence. I was a bachelor, but 'lived out' in a magnificent pad in the country, so I had no axe to grind.

fincastle84 16th Sep 2010 10:45

NR
 

Then I was appointed Mess Secretary
Were you still a career officer in those days? (or should I transfer this to the 'Banter' thread??????:sad:


All times are GMT. The time now is 02:07.


Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.