Roadster I can assure you no Lance Cpl was ever on as much money as a Junior Technician! JT'S were highly trained technicians who had served generally (unless apprentice) for many years and were in fact better paid than most Cpls of none technical trades.

AR1 you are right I would never have considered myself equal to a Lance Jack either!

Some thoughts:
 

I was (once - 25 years ago!) an army LCPL on an RAF Unit - my tech LCPL pay was quite a bit more than the J/T's pay - they were a good bunch of lads though:D! Also, for those not up with the current policy (at least the last time I looked) charging people has changed massively - All anyone can do now is to refer the matter to the station (or unit if the unit is an independent one) disciplinary officer. They will then decide if there is a case to answer. Most things now seem to be swept under the carpet, as the officer (Ops support/admin) can't know the in's and outs of everything to do with each trade for Tech charges etc.:ugh: I guess RAF Regt Sqn's won't have this problem, as the officer concerned will have been a Regt Flt Cdr first.
Agree that it's a great move for the Rock Apes to be able to reward a section 2ic in this very visable way.

As an ex JT, my course was 17 months long – is that long enough?

Isn’t that what the feds for the most part were (acting CPL Snowdrops)?

Used to go as a job lot from the section and then just copy each other’s answers... Just wasn’t worth the effort. Only did it so we could put leave in when the yearly CCS qual had expired :zzz:

Yepp, ditto. That and wave your wallet at them :ok:

We were TG2 (pay band 3), so not that many above us. I also seem to remember that we used to best quite a lot of SGTs as well in the wages department

As for the CPL’s club, also complete waste of money in later years....

Other than that, I had alot opf respect for the rock Apes. they were there to protect me. That and my old man was one in his youth :D

Incorrect.

As a junior (ie Cpl & below), your max pay scale was Band 3 Class 1. As a JT Band 3 class 1, you got paid less than a LCpl Band 3 Class 1, because you were not an NCO.

I quite agree, as a lancejack I got paid more than a band 4 Sgt, who had been band 1 as a junior.

To get a band 3 trade in the Army required a long course, anywhere from 9 months to a year and a half or so. Almost equivalent to the RAF, except, some trades gained LCpl on completion of trade training.

There's been a couple of posts here that underlined what I said earlier; JTs often assumed they made more money than Army lancejacks, but in fact this was only the case if the lancejack was on a lower pay scale.

It was all years ago, I don't greatly care, but the misconceptions carry on.

Al R
 

I guess that this may accentuate your senility, but 58 Sqn RAF Regt have already reformed at Leuchars.

RAF Website

Or are you breaking a new development.....:ok:

:ok:.. fair one. Yes, Leuchars.

<<The Squadron will build up over the coming months and will ultimately consist of 173 personnel>>

I suppose if a sqn does have to go, its going to be a short lived renaissance for 58.

The JT rank was actually a higher rank then an Army Lance Corporal in Queens Regs I believe, had this conversation when I was still in the RAF and some Lance Corporal was trying to rub me up the wrong way in front of "his lads" when I ordered him off an aircraft he was not supposed to be on, I pointed out I actually did outrank him when he got bolshie, they all went away and checked, was neither here nor there really as he was trying to enter an aircraft we were working on to "have a looksie and was intent on bringing his oiks on with him... Just wanted an easy life and to get the old pile of cr*p servicable........ who would have though you would still be flying that pile of crap 25 years later LOL.

hence no doubt why they have said

RAF Regiment Lance Corporal's have powers of charge over Aircraftman, Leading Aircraftman and Senior Aircraftman, but not, Junior Technician and Senior Aircraftman Technician, which, despite being OR2, require a Corporal OR4 or above to charge if required.>>


For the life of me I cannot see why they removed the JT rank and brought out the SAC tech, all that did was undermine the trade and no doubt cost the earth in changing everything from paperwork through posters to badges (twice)..... once whilst the JT was still in existance as you would then have duplication, and once again when the last one left or was promoted.

What next BTW, reduce all Act/CPL stewards and RAF police to L/CPL?

Just a general reflection following the posts so far. The J/T rank did seem to loose quite a bit of it's image when the stripe gave way to that rather miserable looking four bladed prop. Remember though that the J/T "rank" was in fact part of an overall Technical Rank Structure commencing at J/T which (in technical trades) required first and foremost for an individual to be categorized as a "Fitter", later passing through Cpl Tech, Senior Tech, Chief Tech etc. and also there were quite a few Master Techs at one time.

For many of us, J/T was a milestone we reached after completing "advanced training" (more commonly "fitters course") and I don't really think many of us ever considered that the one stripe was something that carried disciplinary powers. We were,in the main, quite highly motivated individuals, a large proportion of whom were ex Boy Entrants and who had (with the exception of apprentices) previously served as mechanics. We saw ourselves then embarking on the first rung of an advanced technical ladder and moving into what in those days was considered by many as the elite of the ground trades. I never did get to wear the (coveted) inverted stripe; only completed my fitters course and promoted to J/T after the single inverted stripe had been consigned to history:* No end of us were pretty disappointed not to ever wear one.

As for Lance Corporals in the RAF Regiment, frankly I think it's good to see the system is flexible enough to create what is deemed a necessary rank for a unique operating environment. I really don't think there is a need for other guys outside of the Regiment to get their nickers in a twist over a very remote hypothetical situation these guys are going to be roaring around writing out 252's right left and center; I'm sure if it did happen they would be stomped on pretty quickly.

Interesting thread, made me dust off a few cobwebs ! :)

The rank structure always has been a bit flexible unofficially, detachments to German bases would mean us all being given Sgt stripes to wear for the period of the detachment, otherwise we were relegated to the Conscripts mess and bar, and that wasn't funny, no offence to the Germans, but if I had ever got conscripted there, I would have gone over the wall to East Germany :p

In another era, when Army L/Cpls used to try and gob-off in front of "career" Marines, they rapidly discovered that a 22 year Marine has little to lose when he adjusts the attitude of some wet behind the ears techie using a ground handling pole. Apparently that sort of thing is frowned upon these days, more's the pity, as it used to teach people a lot about the difference between experience and service versus trade rank.

Or Act/L.Cpl's :E

Agreed.

Agreed about PTIs as well. If you only need a L/Cpl to do beep tests and shuttle runs, you might only need a L/Cpl to do First Aid testing and CCS tick tests as well. Kerching.

As a J/T I did conjure up a little trick that got the rank, or more to the point me, some respect.. When answering the phone I didn't abbreviate the Rank, and thus callers who weren't switched on enough to pick up the 'Junior' thought I was a Chief, as Chiefs NEVER abbreviated. The conversations were much more civilised.

That said, I think the people whom I/WE provided a direct service to (ATC) generally treated us with respect. I felt very much part of a team in that area of work. I couldn't do a controllers job, and they couldn't do mine.

;)

I always thought that Lance Corporals in the army were appointed not promoted, and the rank could be taken away at a moments notice by COs.
Is this the same in the RAF ?


Philrigger.

Nope - In the Army, Lcpl is a rank, they are JNCO's; of course they may acting or substantive like any other rank; acting rank can be withdrawn from any NCO by their Commanding Officer.

1st let me declare my background.

Yes I was a Boy Entrant, yes I was a LAC, SAC, J/T then a Cpl and then a Cpl/Tech and yes I was an ‘Aircraft Tradesman’. An ‘Air Radar Mechanic, then an Air Radar Fitter and finally an Air Radar Fitter (Bomber).

My service dates were 1952-65, almost parallel to the life of the 1951 to 1964 ‘Trade Structure’.

The requirement to balance a technical qualification with a rank is something that the RAF has constantly mismanaged. It has always appeared that the RAF/Air Ministry/Ministry of Defence has viewed that the maintenance of complex military aircraft and the protection of the lives of our gallant aircrew, as a necessary evil and something to be done on the cheap.

It is interesting to compare the NATO positioning of RAF ranks with those of the USAF. Have a look on Wiki! While you are there, compare how many ranks the USAF manages to get into the Sgt’s Mess and how many the RAF manages to keep out.

The RAF always seems to be trying to get highly skilled tradesmen without recognising the fact by giving them any level of recognition or privilege. As a brand new J/T I was given a ‘chit’ by some Engineering Officer who didn’t know me, that authorised me to ‘over sign’ the F700 for repairs done by the mechanics and so that I could sign for my work. It was cheaper by 3 shillings (15p) a day, than promoting me to Cpl.

As for the Rock’s introducing Lance Cpl’s, good for them! But if the pay rate is squeezed between SAC and Cpl, won’t it make the next step to Cpl seem to be worth less?

One point not mentioned, J/T’s in the RAAF wear a single stripe, point down! As per the new Rock L/Cpls’, this could be interesting when they meet . :ok:

Army Mover
 

;)


I stand corrected.


Philrigger.

Fortune in those days. Did I read somewhere that you got extra (1960s) for having a Marksman badge. Coming from the bad-lands of Durham I sailed through that at Bridgnorth, albeit with a fat lip as I fired a rifle left handed and the bolt of a Lee Enfield wasn't best placed for this.

I don't recall any extra pay so maybe the RAF owes me 9 years worth of cash. Possibly too late. :(