Borneo 1962-66
 

I've been reading some general books on the Borneo Confrontation and trying to get more information on the Helecopter operations. Any one know of any books/websites?
How did the climate/terrain effect the performance of the Belvedere,Whirlwinds, Wessex's, souix and scouts?

NURSE, it was slighty before my time, but from some I know who were there, the high temperatures caused major problems with aircraft that were already performance-limited even in ISA conditions.

My favourite story (possibly achrophal) from those days was of the number of hits from ground fire the Brit choppers were suffering in the tail rotor area. Then some bright spark came up with the novel idea of moving the large RAF roundel that was painted under the forward cabin to right down towards the back end of the tail boom.

The Indon marksmen on the ground had been (naturally) drawn to aiming at the large, inviting 'target', and, with that providing the lead angle, the choppers were taking hits near the tail.

Roundel moved, same (lack of) lead angle applied, no more hits. British ingenuity at its best.

I was AT out there myself, NURSE, or MRT as we called it in those days. A shiny new co-pilot on Hastings enjoying the best posting on offer then or ever IMHO. Have you read:
Drop Zone Borneo, The RAF Campaign 1963-65: 'The Most Successful Use of Armed Forces in the Twentieth Century' Pen & Sword Military: Amazon.co.uk: Roger Annett: Books
written by a chum of mine, Roger Annett, similarly then both shiny and new but suffering from the disadvantage of being posted to the "Whistling Wheelbarrow"! :E Nonetheless he captures very well the spirit of time and place. A different world in a different time of course, but a very typical low profile British success story.
The only "Chopper" related story that I recall came from one of our skippers who was detached as ASLO or BASO to them (as ever the memory fades) to supervise inter alia the loading of troops. The Whirlwind pilots complained that they were barely clearing the tree canopy from the small clearings as they departed loaded with troops. As the troops in question were Gurkhas and not burly Brits it didn't make sense. So chum hangs sample Gurkha on Butcher Scales slung from tree. Sure enough he comes in at 2/3 standard troop weight. Next replace Gurkha with kit. Tree groans, branch threatens to break, scales go to full scale. Upon investigation of backpack, in place of socks pairs spare for the use of, etc, is yet more ammo and associated sundries!

I thought I was an expert in telling tall stories about my Borneo days but I have to stand back in admiration for the bloke that thought up that one.

Helios in Borneo
 

There aren't too many accounts of Borneo and still fewer about the helio part of it - but that's about to change, however, not just yet!!

At that stage all helios were under powered and had limited range/payload. Comms were primitive, weather was a major problem, navigation done on the back of a fag packet - mostly time & distance stuff, poor maps, flying suits made in Australia - unless you wanted to wear the 'UK strength' blue stuff!!

For a young'un it was an experience of a lifetime.

Spares - particularly blades - were frequently in short supply and one was at the end of an 8000 miles pipeline being primed by people with no idea what was going on at t'other end!

Go to the 'history & nostalgia' threads on this site and look for 'Belvedere' and the posts about 225 sqn, confrontation and Indonesia etc - loads of background stuff there.

I had such a great time, I sometimes give talks about it!!

O-D

Spot the Wessex!!

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/l...d/Borneo16.jpg

Another story
 

At the start of Confrontation, most of Borneo was unsurveyed: it was said that the border between the East Malaysian (ex-British) and Indonesian Borneo had been surveyed by Shell, with the British and Dutch sides of the company doing the work separately, using different base-lines. Major (and even minor) land features could therefore appear on either side of the frontier line, depending on whose mapping one was relying on. This was said to give considerable lee-way to troops on the ground when confronting opposition forces ...
Certainly, Canberras from Tengah were involved throughout in photography for accurate maps to be produced, instead of the large areas merely " contour shaded".

Confrontation was indeed the most successful example of successful diplomacy backed by land, sea and air forces shown to be "ready to go" - a sharp contrast to the mess that was being made in Viet Nam. The result was a stable Malaysia and Singapore, as well as Indonesia itself: Harold Wilson's declaration as Confrontation wound down, that we would never again be involved in anything so expensive and that we would withdraw from "East of Suez" was one of the crassest ever made by a British politician.

Indonesian Confrontation
 

Slightly off topic, but perhaps someone can shed some light on the persistent rumours of a 60 Sqn Javelin dispatching an Indonesian C-130 with a Firesteak missile and of a 20 Sqn Hunter claiming a kill on one of their MiG-17s?

Heimdall

may be of interest to some
 

Borneo Stories
 

The weighing of Gurkhas has substance in fact - but not in Borneo. A sqn cdr in Cyprus bought several bathroom scales and got his crews (then flying Sycamores) to weigh the troops before emplaneing them. In this way he could maximise payload offered. He became known as 'Bathroom Scales P*&^%' to differentiate from 'Tail Rotor P*&^%' who acquired that epithet for obvious reasons of banging the backend on the ground.

As to the Javelin/C130 story there is again an element of truth (sorry to contradict NutherA2). At Labis (Sep '64) the Indons dropped a load of paras from 3 Hercs and these duly fled back across the water to Sumatra and one of them (flown by Indon Foreign Minister Subandrio's son) believed he was being pursued or had been 'painted' by somebody and flew into the sea. The story of the search for and 'elimination' of the incursion, which resulted in the death of Major Richard Haddow and the disappearance of the Indon Sgt Maj Wogiman is for another day.

At a place called Long Bawan, south of Bakalalan, an Indon C130 was chased by a Javelin or Hunter which found the C130 coming the other way up a valley. Everybody did a quick 180, followed by the Brit doing another 180 and the C130 fled across the border and crashed on the strip at Long Bawan. It was still there sometime later.

Turning to Jig Peter, the border was generally taken as the ridge line. The aerial survey was started by 684 Sqn in 1945 and was still being worked on by 81 Sqn 18 years later. Of course the locals completely ignored the border but as we treated them generally better than the other lot, we benefitted from their trust and friendship.

Great Times

O-D

I was on the QRA force the night of the Labis para drop and am absolutely certain that none of our aircraft was scrambled, although it was rumoured that Bukit Gombak GCI had detected the 130 incursion. I believe the report that one of the Indonesian aircraft had gone missing came from diplomatic sources in Jakarta; if it was suggested that it had been intercepted the rumour was allowed to develop, but believe me, none of us was airborne that night.

If the Borneo incident occurred, none of us was made aware of it, which would have been very odd, considering the amount of time and effort we were putting into the border patrols and the understandably keen rivalry between 20 & 60 Sqns (and latterly 64) to be the first to find anything to intercept.

Might this Wikipedia entry be relevant? -

The Indonesians lost a C-130 in Borneo and it did not involve the RAF. It occurred on 26 September 1965 near Long Bawang airfield into the 5th Division of Sarawak near Ba Kelalan in Sarawak. It was shot down by Indonesian anti-aircraft fire, being mistaken for a Commonwealth aircraft. It was carrying a reinforced RPKAD platoon from RPKAD Battalion 1’s Company C (nicknamed ‘Cobra’). The full company had been sent from Java on orders of the Indonesian high command to ‘neutralise’ a gun position on the border ridge. After the aircraft was hit the RPKAD parachuted out and the aircraft crashed, but the crew got clear before it caught fire.

Humble Pie!!
 

I shall defer to NutherA2 regarding the details of the stories I have related above, as his involvement was more 'immediate' than my recollections based on second hand information: humble pie duly consumed with the wheatie bangs!

O-D

PS We're drifting the Thread a bit from helios stories but probably no bad thing as the campaign was a model of how to get things right and followed the equally successful Malayan Emergency.

And both the P*&^%s went on to do quite well.

JL (Bathroom Scales) retired as a gp capt having commanded a rotary Station, while JW (Tail Rotor) finished as a 2-star, inter alia having commanded a fast-jet Station in Germany.

[I'm sure O-D knows all that,but others might not!]

some nice links from historic thead to some photos of a Whirlwind flight quite interesting stuff on dress and conditions. In the forward Helecopter bases.

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x...ng38Medium.jpg
Some sundry types, including mandatory hicopleter, on the Kuching apron taken from Hastings executing an approved run in and break.

BTW Oldduffer, not sure I'm enamoured of your:
I don't doubt your story, just wonder why you doubt mine. The guy concerned wasn't given to line shooting, no doubt the Butchers Scales were the jungle equivalent of your man's bathroom scales, there being a lack of hard floors in the jungle to set them down on of course. If the quote above included the word "only" after "not" then honour would be satisfied and my second could be recalled,,,,,

Another Hecopleter!

This one was one of 848 Squadrons runabout having taken over from the Hiller 12e's of 845 Squadron. Eventually they were superseded by Wasps.

Not a lot of lift in a Whirlwind 7 in Borneo - or anywhere else for that matter.

848 had the wonderful Wessex 5.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/l...dgod/WW703.jpg

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x...gPanMedium.gif


Baston:
Wot, these contraptions skulking behind the wondrous flying machine in the foreground?

A Day For Apologies!!!
 

Having 'backed down' to the superior knowledge of NutherA2 at about 0630 hours this a.m, I am now posting a retraction - nay - clarification to satisfy CHUGALUG2, regarding who did or did not weigh which Gurkhas, when, where and how. Further generous helpings of humble pie consumed!

However, Teeteringhead - in his last post - has forgotten the third in the trio and that was 'HT' - now living in quiet retirement somewhere near Cheltenham.

Happy Days

O-D

These may be of interest
 

BORNEO - Sepalot

Malaya - Supply Dispatch by air - What airfield?

Butterworth, malaya

Borneo 1965 - Beware Lots of Pics - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums

Memories - Operations in the Air

and:
Helicopters of 26/66 Squadron at Kuching
http://static.flickr.com/3087/266156...34f51a51_m.jpg
http://static.flickr.com/3075/266156...cdfbb94a_m.jpg
http://static.flickr.com/3031/266073...8375f565_m.jpg

Chugaz

You have done it this time!!

Them ain't Wessex 5s them is Wessex 1s - no power and no idea from 845! They were based on Bulwark hence the big B on the tail.

I enclose a photo of my foot to show you the difference in exhaust pipes!

Plus the A for Albion..................:O

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/l...d/Borneo12.jpg

Oh bast0n!

rotors running, HP's foot on cockpit sill, troops emplaning with fancy hats on ...

.... and you say the RAF SH force is gash! :ok:

Teeters

Did I ever say gash?

PS what is HP?

PPS the only way to keep cool was to fly with your foot out of the window and let the wind blow up rather than the usual down................:)

PPPS Fancy hats!! The bobble on the top is actually a nail that keeps them on in the downwash..................:uhoh:

The ADF aerials are on the rocks,so`s the tail HF,the hook`s open,no flotation gear...tut,tut.tut.
Best you don`t go anywhere near Scotland either,or the Argyle`s will make you into a haggis,or just a few `little bits`.....
HP is wot the `upper echelons` of the PC brigade call the `handling pilot`,in formal circles,as opposed to `I`ve got it ,Middy`....

Well let me say a word in your favour, baston. Such elan, such style! The right leg resting nonchalantly on the window sill, though I daresay it has a more nautical term, scuttle or suchlike. I wouldn't be at all surprised if there wasn't a furled brolly by your side in order to poke the locals with if you needed to get directions from them (loudly and in English of course). English eccentricity at its best, on which we built an Empire. Oh, you're not, and we don't mention the Empire? My mistake, sincere apologies I'm sure.
As to the difference in Exhaust Pipes, yer 'avin a larf aintcher? I think the real problem was that my Wessex (got that bit right at least) wasn't the wrong Mark, or even the wrong Squadron, but from the wrong boat! What? Ship? Oh sorry again, perhaps I should just make my excuses and leave!

Sycers

and yes I flew one of them once!

We managed to get the HF sticks happily between the pebbles. Could you not in the Crabbies? (to be fair they were latterly modified to a more kindly angle to avoid an unfortunate tangle)

The hook was always open until shut with a load on it. Turning up with a closed hook could have fooled the lesser mortals on the ground. Hook always ready and waiting - no sports afternoons on a Wednesday for us Laddie!

Flot gear over the jungle? How deep was your puddle. Extra weight and maintenance - see sports afternoons above.

Oh and Chugaz - I like the idea of handling the pilot. As there was only one in the old cockaz one had a fair chance of a small inflow roll............:)

I include a picture of our RAF exchange officer............the confused look is because he had trouble working out that we had two engines...........nice tach though:ok:

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/l...d/Borneo13.jpg

what was the troop loads on the various aircraft in the Borneo Jungle could they lift the advertised numbers or was it reduced due to heat, altitude etc?

Return To Reality
 

Oh NURSE, you've spoiled the youthful banter and general bon homme with your question.

The simple answer, as with many questions relating to payload is: 'it's a combination of all the factors'.

You had to be able to get airborne for a start and so a 'running take-off' would allow a few more pounds weight than a straight lift above the tree line and a transition to forward flight (one soldier = 10lbs of torque). If you were flying a shuttle, take more weight as the fuel went down. What's the height and temp doing? Where's the next load of fuel coming from and how do I get to it? Plus several other questions, including; 'is the boss looking?'

However, there are at least two v-experienced and greatly respected HPs contributing to this Thread who have more hours than I've 'ad hot dinners, so I'll leave it to their superior knowledge.

O-D

I'm sure there are alot of stories and memories from all 3 services and 60's helecopter warfare tends to be dominated by US operations in Veitnam same goes for Jungle Warfare. Personally I think we did it much better and with more style.

BastON, is that the WX `Mk1` HUD/Gunsight or a reflection on the windscreen ?

NURSE, as O-D says,it was a time when one had to know your power limits,and the best techniques for landing and t/o,in the tropical climate,from sea level to 5-6000 ft LZs.On our WWs we only had fuel-flow as a measure of power(plus crpm,and ptit );we were also limited to a max AUW of 7800lbs,whereas civilian WW Seies 3 ,were cleared to 8000lbs.
And yes,we had bathroom scales,which were used to make a `standard weight`list,or if something different came along we would weigh it.For instance,105 MM field gun shells+charges came in a big wooden box,weighing some ,say 200 lbs, but about 40 lbs was the box wt. That was wasted weight,so we would just carry the shell+charges in their tubes, saved weight,carry more shells,easier to load/unload,everyone happy,and no back-loading of empty boxes..
To reduce the weight of the aircraft we also took out the seats,leaving the belts,HFradio,windows ,door on occasion,ran with minimum fuel,and if a large troop movement was required ,we would get them to go in light fighting order,where they had only about 2-3 days rations,leaving bergens behind,getting more troops on the ground,and once they were secure,we would ferry in the kit.It meant you could probably carry an extra 2-3 troops at a time,and they were much more mobile/flexible....Syc..

and twice as much trouble.
Two sick Wessie at Sepulot with the robust Whirlwind; flown by me, who had to drag himself out of the Victoria Hotel bar in Labuan, so I could do their tasking for them.

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/e...1-2010_008.jpg

It took them a week to get them started again.

FED,Al,what cab is that with the `snotty ` nose,and did it return to Odios ?

edit; just being an anorexic, or sumpn`...

Sycaz

Indeed it was the HUD gunsight. The rocket sight was much more complicated as it necessitated firing a rocket and putting a chinagraph cross on the windscreen where it seemed to go..............

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/l...god/img165.jpg

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/l..._Rocketing.jpg

Ah - what happy days...............

Confrontation
 

I was an Infantry Officer during Confrontation Deployed in the Third Division and based in Long Jawi. As a late arrival after a jungle warfare course in Kota Tingi (Malaya) I travelled from Sibu to Nanga Ghat (NG), the home of 110 Sqn RAF, in a speed boat so all day up the mighty River Rajang. As you approached NG there was a Wessex 5 nose down in the river and not 100yards later OMG another one, all FAA. There were many stories of how these aircraft came to be there most of which seemed to centre on how many Gurkhas could you get on a Wessex and the answer seemed to be as many until she will just get into a hover then one more! Phrases like WTF have I let myself in for and I'll never fly here raced through ones mind. 110 flew Whirlwind 10s and I flew from NG to Long Jawi the following day with sacks of mail the trip took some 45 to 50 minutes passing a large mountain range, name escapes me but was the weather barometer for the trip as in if it was in cloud you didn't go. Life for the next 5 months was in and out of the jungle on 14 day patrols. The WW would take 4 soldiers loaded for bear (food and ammo) and the crewman was dispensed with. A Scout from the flight based in Sibu would also take 4 pax, 5 with the pilot. If the winds were unfavourable there was jungle refuelling stop available, Blue 49 code named Diana, with 44 gallon drums and water sedi kit available. Happy days, that expirience turned me to flying. 2 and a half years later I was on a flying course and the rest is history, thirty years flying with the AAC and never regretted it one minute. One of the 110 pilots was Sergeant Fred Aries (sp) other names have long gone. Scout pilots John Hathaway, John Bamford again other names gone as well. My last helicopter trip out of LJ was in a Belvedere which was timely as I had spent many a happy hour increasing the size of the LZs from WW to Belvedere size - much explosive, blisters and broken chain saw blades!!

LB

Lowball

What year were you flying from NG in WW10s?

Unfortunately.........
 

............. Low Ball, the pair of Wessex you saw in the river were not Mk 5s but Mk 1s and they were put there on 12 Apr 65 as a result of a mid air between two 845 cabs. There was only one survivor - a petty officer aircrewman, who released his running harness and dropped into the river, as I understand it.

The RN lost three men and the army lost a Para Regt patrol and one or more 'attached' soldiers. If you are a member of the Malaya & Borneo Veterans Assoc, they have a roll of honour with all these guys listed.

A chum of mine was at Nanga Gaat this very March and he photographed, inter alia, the remains of the engines and some other bits which still remain and can be seen depending on how high the river is.

Furthermore, you ought to be entitled to the Pingat Jasi Malaysia (PJM) - a medal issued by the Malaysian Government which the (very rude) British Government didn't want to accept but then relented, although not for wear!!! (So who's going to enforce that bit of useless legislation??).

O-D

Old Duffer

Quite right. The rear cab flew into the tail rotor of the front cab - the rear pilot not being very strong in the sight department - but that is a very long and unhappy story not worth re-telling.

sycamore

XR456. The picture was taken late August 1966. I never flew it again. It did not return to Odiham with us and it was written off in 1968.

Looking at the pictures of rockets.
Chunky Lord flew a Whirlwind equipped with SS11 missiles. He told me, over a few pints, that they fired one into a cave were a load of Indons were hiding. Owing to the skill of the operater, aided and abbetted by the rock steady flying of said Chunky, they sent a missile right into the back of the aformentioned geologcal feature and blew the whole lot out like a shotgun.
They were obviously too good so the RAF disbanded the squadron.

XR456
 

Fareastdriver & Sycamore,

Poor old '456 stayed in the Far East and was with 103 Sqn when its engine stopped on 5 Nov 68, somewhere near Mersing. It went through the trees and ended up on the jungle floor. Although the pilot received back injuries, the crewman and another NCO were not too badly bashed about but 456 is still where she fell.

Pilot recovered and went on to be a stash at a well known helicopter base near Basingstoke (not an officers' town) and was last heard of living on a boat in marina in Cambridgeshire.

In a similar vein, I have somewhere a photo of XJ412 - another WW10 - perched on the very top of Tinker's Hill in Sabah. She had a tail rotor failure but it was too inaccessible to get her out and there she remains. At the time, she could be seen from miles away, sitting there and looking very sad but I expect she's buried beneath the canopy now, unless some enterprising local has dismantled her for scrap! If I can figure out how to do it, I'll post a pickkie.

Toodle Pip

O-D