Russian subs stalk Trident
 

Russian subs stalk Trident in echo of Cold War

Russian submarines are hunting down British Vanguard boats in a return to Cold War tactics not seen for 25 years, Navy chiefs have warned.

A specially upgraded Russian Akula class submarine has been caught trying to record the acoustic signature made by the Vanguard submarines that carry Trident nuclear missiles, according to senior Navy officers. British submariners have also reported that they are experiencing the highest number of "contacts" with Russian submarines since 1987.

If the Russians are able to obtain a recording of the unique noise of the boat's propellers it would have serious implications for Britain's nuclear deterrent. Using its sophisticated sonar, the Akula would be able to track Vanguards and potentially sink them before they could launch their Trident D4 missiles.

The Daily Telegraph has learnt that, within the past six months, a Russian Akula entered the North Atlantic and attempted to track a Vanguard. The incident has remained secret until now. It is understood that the Russians stood off Faslane, where the British nuclear force is based, and waited for a Trident-carrying boat to come out for its three-month patrol to provide the Continuous At Sea Deterrent.

While patrolling in the North Atlantic, there are a limited number of places the Vanguard is permitted to go and it is thought that the Akula attempted to track it on several occasions. Navy commanders are understood to have ordered a Trafalgar-class hunter-killer submarine to protect the Vanguard. A recording of the Akula was made by the Trafalgar submarine's sonar operators and has been played to The Daily Telegraph.

"The Russians have been playing games with us, the Americans and French in the North Atlantic," a senior Navy commander said. "We have put a lot of resources into protecting Trident because we cannot afford by any stretch to let the Russians learn the acoustic profile of one of our bombers as that would compromise the deterrent."

Well without the Mighty Hunter they are unhindered in their quest.

A Timely Warning
 

The publication of this story has nothing to do with the SDSR, does it? Stand by for waves of Russian aircraft trying to enter UK airspace only to be turned away by Typhoon fighters.

Or am I being too cynical?

CD

has the journalist any idea where Faslane is? I cant see the Russians sitting in the Clyde for very long without anyone noticing, the North Channel, maybe !

Cynical - Probably justified.

However perhaps a timely reminder that if you are going to decimate UK Defence Plc then perhaps the chaps armed with the pens of destruction need to sit in their ivory towers with some distance away from being Afghan-centric and consider:

Defence of the Realm.
Obligations to UK worldwide responsibility. (Commonwealth?)
Commitments to UK Defence pacts. (NATO) (Euro?) (UN)

...and ensure above all else that Defence of the Realm is maintained with a satisfactory autonomous military capability. For if defence of the UK mainland is dependent upon any of our 'allies' we really have hit rock bottom, and are vulnerable:

Perhaps those releasing this story are just trying to remind those busy sharpening the knives pre-SDR that defence is not just about Afghanistan. Defence of the UK, which is the primary role/ responsibility of the MOD/ Government, is what Trident/ QRA are about. Afghanistan, tanks, bombers, aircraft carriers etc are about offence, imposing our will on other countries, enabling the government to strut their stuff on the world stage/ UN Security Council etc, and as such should be regarded as a secondary role. That is why the SDR should be led by a Foreign Policy review and what role the UK should take in the world with regard to our current financial position, and not just be based on a targeted saving.

:D:D Ken, excellent :D:D

KS - but that would be the logical and sensible way to go - so, whichever party in power, most unlikely. However, for what it is worth I endorse your view.

Granted. But cynical or not, does the military having to remind us via these leaks about what is happening, make the case for proper defence any less valid? Isn't the fact we have to be reminded, more indicative of a lazy, celebrity obsessed / bandwagon jumping media and a news listless, attention-span deficit public, than it is, an indication that the underlying reason for the leak has merit?

Instead of the Nimrod maybe we can rely on the ASW expertise of our gallant European allies. Of course, the guys who were really good at it, the Dutch, like us also have zero MPA capability. :ugh:

Fin84,

Ah yes, the Dutch providing the exemplar of why you should never tempt the government with a "they want savings, but they'll never cut this, so we'll show them how clever we are" approach.

Oops. :hmm:

How are the Germans doing with the ex-Cloggie P-3s?

S41

Unfortunately I've been out of the loop too long to know the answer.

You'd be surprised where subs have got to in the last thirty years, both ours and thus possibly theirs. I can think of a few submarine COs with OBEs earned this way.

Why do you think we had an SK ASW squadron at Prestwick? They were there to screen the Faslane boats out into the N Atlantic.

Ah...now ISTR we got rid of that a SDR or 2 ago because the merlin was considered faster & more capable in ASW than the SK & therefore we could do with less bases/airframes. That decision, from those who clearly understood ASW tactics better than the ASW specialists, that the RN would deploy a merlin as & when necessary to provide the screen, was implemented before the merlin had been fully proved or cost comparison undertaken.

Now we see the RN merlin fleet stretched, deployed to provide other capabilites in other parts of the world & very little in the way of real ASW. In fact interested to know whether the merlin crews even consider or train for ASW as a primary role any more??

With SARH proffing faster more capable, but fewer in number, platforms, now under review to establish if it could be done even cheaper, one wonders how many more times the wheel must turn before those that make decisions actually listen to those providing the capability currently and who know what they're talking about.

If the boats are still in Faslane, why are the ASW Sea Kings no longer there?

Edited to add: I was posting as the the answer to my question was being posted. Bugger!

Nimrod MR2 out of service 31Mar10 - 5 months

You couldn't make it up unless your name was Clancy!

Awesome story, Jack - perfectly timed to land on the National Security Council table in Sept! Nice one ;)

PS Oh really? :rolleyes:

Rules of Government Press Releases:

1. Establish who released it.
2. Determine what they stand to gain by releasing it.
3. Now understand what the Press Release was really about.

I know exactly how close theirs got back in the 80s but if I told you I'd have to kill you! I well remember one panic when it got so busy that we finished up with the whole of 42 detached to ISK to give assistance. The scruff bar has never made so much money. At the end of det party Henry the Hoover burst his bag after 11 pints of heavy!

I was on that one too Fincastle!
Pigs bar rarely closed I seem to remember :o)

OK, I'll have a guess.........Findhorn Bay?

Were the D-5s traded in as a cost-saving measure?

I/C

Of all the tasks in the RAF and RN, ASW is the one that requires the most training, crew co-ordination and current practice. If the decision to double our ASW capability were taken today, it would take years for the new crews to achieve an appropriate level of expertise.
Ivan is certainly "avin' a laugh."

Shack37/ Pingdit
 

Well if the nucs had been based in Inverness then that could well have been true.

Pingdit

Obviously if you can remember then you obviously weren't there!

Reminds me of the Op started when a recently downbanded port beam operator called a "certsub" not a million miles from said naval base...

Oh how we laughed as the greens rolled in.

Is it Really ?!

You'll have no difficulty converting to SH in the next 18 months then......

MPA to SH has been done quite a few times, however not many have managed the reverse............................:E

Who would want to?

Pies in the oven, FLgodknows, fly around in circles. No wonder not many people have managed it, not many have ever been bothered.

I suspect it is, actually, not least because it requires people to find extremely quiet things under the water where most non-acoustic sensors can't reach. This isn't intended to minimise the other roles required of sea and airborne units, but ASW is very difficult indeed to do properly, and the difference between good enough* and not good enough is paper thin.

Dave

*apologies to Boggy if he's reading this, I didn't mean him <g>

GC wrote:

And he's closer than he may realise. Trident replacement requires SSBN build capability at Barrow - but we could buy SSNs from somewhere else (in Connecticut, possibly). So the cost of Trident should logically include a significant portion of the cost overruns on Astute that were all about buying the capability to build nuclear submarines rather than Astute herself. If SSBN is binned, then the need to have Barrow is binned too - making further savings possible.

The good news if this were to happen is that we'll be looking for a large number of certified nuclear engineers shortly for the next gen civil nuclear powerplants. Birds, stones.

S41

Big (re)learning curve to regain ASW proficiency for the MR2 crews on return from GW1, after only a 2 month det. I feel sorry for the folks that are still around that may or may not be asked to re-invent the wheel from scratch. What a sad state of affairs for an island nation to be in.

Russian sub stalks Trident.....

Ba**s!

Black Prince
 

There was a Victor III skipper who back in the 80's was known as the Black Prince.

Couldn't help thinking that this Akula driver could be the "son of"

Are the AGI's still going about?

Quote:
Of all the tasks in the RAF and RN, ASW is the one that requires the most training, crew co-ordination and current practice.
You'll have no difficulty converting to SH in the next 18 months then......

Six four, thirteen and three quarters, clear above and behind."

Worked for me for 2 tours!

CG:ok:

Must have been on Belvederes or something because I've got no idea what six four, thirteen and three quarters means.

MGD

I'm going back MGD does that count?:confused:

There is nothing to go back to. Though perhaps Nimrod 2000, a token fleet of just 4 airframes may pop up sometime around 2015.

Not exactly Belvederes, nor IIRC a correct set of fiqures. In those days it would have been 12.25 without SLF (Normal Ops) and 15ish when "Heavy". (A rare occasion) Though in fairness, CG may be referring to metal rather then GRP in which case he is probably spot on.

...as for remuster to ISK :eek: Has anyone ever applied? Nearest I know of is Tom moving in permanently to the RCC, and thats only because he is a local.

TM

Never said it was correct, just that it got me by! (And it was a wee while back).

F 84 said:

Suspect that was the time I had to seek the permission of the PMC to leave the table half-way through the Main Course.
I was still conducting briefings in Mess Kit at lunchtime the following day!

S206

That's the one! There was also a JMC taking place although the Nimrod involvement was somewhat reduced! Bogh flew back with my crew & we did a formation arrival back at St Mawgan c/s Chough formation!
Maybe if the Mk 4 eventually gets into service they'll let some of us OAPs have a go.