Good God. The antis aren't here, the pros are, once again, trying to defend their pet by discrediting anything said against it and those of us on the middle ground are being crashed by the pros.

After a spell of quite useful debate here, we're back to the old stuff.

Spaz, you don't normally lower yourself to this, but I think you have this time.

JSFfan, back to some very unfortunate militant rubbish:

That is a completely crass remark. Where are you hearing that? In what role is that happening? What are you trying to prove by even saying it?

The F-22 is, arguably, THE top of the line air supremecy fighter of the day. That's what it is designed to do. In incorporates stealth (and other) technology that is not for sale - that's why the USA won't export it. That is also why some of that technology is not available to the F-35. Even less so for export.

The F-35's air-to-air capability is only really there as a self defence role - it is primarily a strike platform. Even to compare it to F-22 A.S., let alone claim that it's "sotting" the F-22 simply reminds us all of your blinkered and overstated understanding of the whole issue.

yes, like the Eurofighters beating the F-22s, it will finally put an end to all the internet theory and bickering once and for all. :ok:

I'll give that to the f-22 BFM

CM, I'm hearing that on defensetalk, it's 'rumored' by someone with clearance that in full system campaign level sims, the f-35 is exceeding the f-22 within the system.
Given your quoting of clown club APA/Criss, I'm surprised you try and claim the middle ground "those of us on the middle ground"

Courtney has highlighted how preposterous your claim is but I would like to question your honesty.

Or do you expect us to believe that an uncleared civilian with no connection to the programme would have such easy access to classified information?

Fantasy is one thing, honesty is another.

:=

I think you need to settle down a bit. Since when an I claiming anything for myself?
you may not like to hear that within the system, it's said that the f-35 is very good

For the sake of the future of USAF and many other Western Air Forces I truly and profoundly hope you're right.
That said, somehow I have really a hard time seeing that coming.

Aside from the kinematic shortcomings, which are here to stay with the F-35 and which will also impede BVR capabilities significantly, I see much trouble with Systems and Software at the Moment with the Helmet Sight being far from where it should be. How that translates to superior Performances in Sims remains a secret with those who are setting up these Sims.
And you know what, Sims are just that. Reality is where it counts...

The problem with simulations is that they are just that. Given the immaturity of the JSF mission systems, which don't forget are the heart of the JSF's capability, at the moment they are just the best guess about what LM should deliver. Until the programme completes OT and delivers as war fighting platform a true judgement cannot be made.

Also, given that there is only one country that has a true F22 model, I highly doubt that anyone is leaking information. I suspect that the 'rumour' are nothing more than that.

JSFfan,

I've explained that to you before in post 2571 http://www.pprune.org/7864988-post2571.html. You are quite clearly making bold, unfounded statements again that you must know from past experience here will do you no good, will weaken your argument (such that it is) and will not be swallowed by those here with some military aviation knowledge.

Some funny "sources" being quoted here.

I don't think anyone would step out and call the Super Hornet the world's hottest fighter. However, the USN doesn't have a lot of choice, so the correct question is how it compares with the F-35C, particularly when one looks at the 2020 models of both.

The detail answers are quite interesting.

You are not in the "system" so how would you know?

The f-35 cannot be classed as "very good" as it doesn't even exist in operational form yet. For the people flying it and testing at the moment, it has no operational capability so is simply a very nice aircraft to fly. Hopefully, one day, it will become "very good", but you are in no position to make such a claim today.

You've reverted to posting rubbish again. Leave it out.

I 'know' because people in the 'system' say so

why is it so hard to accept that the f-35 is exceeding the f-22 in system events?

you seem to be kinematic platform centric, perhaps the f-35 isn't the shooter and is targeting the SM-6 for example or its sensor data is enabling another platform.. or other f-35's are using a passive f-35 as a shooter
obviously I don't have any details and accept it from those that do

LO, you make a good point. We know far more about ASH than we do the C. Some strange sources indeed. I think most here are in agreement.

For all the reasons that have just been pointed out to you in the previous dozen posts. F-35 was never designed to take on F-22. In air superiority terms they are in different leagues. As Wallah said, one has no modelling data available because it's not releasable, the other has no modelling data available because it hasn't got to the operational stage of development yet. Just design and engineering objectives - some of which have already been downgraded.

If you truly believe you 'know' anything about what is going on 'in the system' you are even more deluded than I thought.

Networked third party targeting is nothing new to F-35.

You seem not to understand the importance of kinematics. It's not just BFM, as has been explained to you before.

Clearly not.

I've never seen any evidence of that here, unless it suits you.

"F-35 was never designed to take on F-22."
who said it was

"I've never seen any evidence of that here, unless it suits you."
It has to resonate with other sources, someone saying they use to be a pilot so they know all about 5th gen counts for naught.
Especially when the pilots who transition to the f-22 say it's a different world to get their head around
don't the UK pilots say similar about their f-35 experience?

this also supports that the f-22 isn't/wasn't in the system enough
What is the Fifth Generation Aircraft All About? The View From The Cockpit | SLDInfo
The joint operational role for the Raptor is significant. I’d say 80% of our funded testing since I’ve been here in the last two years in some way, shape, or form involves integration; whether it’s integration with other airplanes like F-18s, F-15s and 16s, or integration with Aegis. Maritime Interdiction Integration is a key element of what we’re doing. Virtually all of our tests are about how to make the airplane value-added to the conventional fleet, and that’s pretty much all we’ve done recently.

People throw out those terms all the time, “the paradigm shift”, “a game changer”, “an evolutionary leap”, all those things, but it’s all true. It’s all accurate. And I can tell you from the perspective of a guy who has flown over 2,000 hours in a Hornet. I was a TOPGUN instructor. I was really at the top of my game. I was as competent as the Marine Corps could’ve taught me to be.
In spite of this background, it was a challenge and a major mental leap for me to go to the F-22. It takes time to turn the corner with 5th Gen thinking. But once you do, there’s no going back. Your SA and your ability increase dramatically. Truth be told, you’re always going to have limits in any legacy platform, for many reasons. There’s not a pilot in the Air Force that’s flying Raptors right now that will not tell you the exact same thing.

Quite why so many of the more knowledgeable and balanced contributors to this thread continue to respond to JSFfan's "...a bloke said down the pub, so it must be true!" line of reasoning amazes me! :=

-RP

Lieutenant-Colonel Berke:Changing the way you physically move is one thing, but changing the way you mentally think is very difficult to do and it takes time. When the concepts just don’t apply anymore and you’ve leveraged those concepts for 15 years, it’s not an easy thing. This will be a challenge for all pilots transitioning to the JSF because it’s going to force them to think differently than they ever thought before. But doing so is crucial to the shift in air operations. Once the mindset shift occurs, the true capability will be understood.
As I said before, once that happens the results are exponential. In just a few years, we’re going to have STOVL JSF operating from forward bases. Aside from all the operational and strategic implications, the tactical significance is huge. A single F-35B pilot will have more SA than anyone flying a Marine aircraft ever has. And he’s going to be directly connected to the entire supported force.
When you consider the fused cockpit of a JSF, you begin to understand just why all those descriptors are really accurate. It’s an evolutionary leap. It’s a paradigm shift. It’s a game changer!

Changing the way you physically move is one thing, but changing the way you mentally think is very difficult to do and it takes time.

In the case of JSF advocates, a very :mad:ing long time indeed.

So, tell me, where would a self-confessed know-nothing like you hear such things?

Never mind..I shot this off without reading the rest of the thread...back to your basement JSFfanboy!

Hello? Black pot, meet blacker kettle!

LO, you're as much a part of this problem as JSFfanboy is, just at the opposite end of the spectrum! You're as bad as each other.:mad:

Somewhere in the middle ground is the truth...:rolleyes:

So is it OK that I take on what someone with clearance says, that is also supported by 80% of the f-22 budget being for intergration?