Help focus the cuts on the right areas
 

Spending Challenge


Ideas I put forward:

Move to flat rate system for subsistence expenses. Gets rid of admin cost and eliminates fraudulent claims.

Axe CHBS and allow individuals to book HOTAC themselves. Every pound under the "average" rate adds 50p to your IE.

Axe annual data protection act training

Axe GPC training

Axe "U Need 2 noe" and other nonsense in paper format, instead deploy on intranet for anyone sad enough to actually want to read it.

Same again for department magazines.

1. Stop the wasteful 'annualrity' of defence spending. It's wasteful that we get 'late spends' where we have to get rid of £2M from failed RPC ventures just so that we get the money next year - the whole budgets for projects (esp Infra) needs looking at!

2. Ditch all the unaffordable ceremonial crap such as Guards units and Royal Horse Arty - it's a bygone era; forget it lads - move on - we have not used horses in true battle for some years and do we ever see any of the supposed tourist income that it generates? Wasteful in these lean times.

3. Cull the Civil service and get rid of the 'hangers on' that just 'exist' because people are too crap to use the restoring efficiency programme.

4. Build bloody Barracks and SFA in Central London, on MoD land and stop the millions being wasted on SSSA and SSSFA - why sell off Chelsea Barracks when we could have built service accn there? Same with all the waste at Abbey Wood - buy back RAF Locking and build accommodation!!!

5. Use / Rent out spare capacity on trucks and airframes that are travelling the world empty - how many C17/C130 fly back from Europe/USA empty? What a waste -advertise the empty space and charge companies to fill the aircraft!

6. Stop all the Stn Execs having their own cars just to drive from the patch and back? I mean, come on?? Bike you lazy sods!!!

7. Sell off Defence Estates and rent the land back in some PFI -do away with all the admin faff and let some big company deal with all our Infra needs

8. Amalgamate all MoD admin functions - we now have JPA so lets just have a joint admin corps / service - it would save millions in less bull$hit admin hierarchies!!

That should save a few quid and direct cash to where it's needed in the front-line!!

Move to flat rate system for subsistence expenses. Gets rid of admin cost and eliminates fraudulent claims. Unfair to some as people would duck and weave to avoid expensive trips (expensive to them) an dsome other sap would be joed.

Axe CHBS and allow individuals to book HOTAC themselves. Every pound under the "average" rate adds 50p to your IE. Good idea except that HBS took the pain out of it. Any saving and benefit to the individual would be taxed.

Axe annual data protection act training annual is done on a CD, costs time not money. Agree bin the triennieal class room bit.

Axe GPC training is done on CD but I never bothered as it was mouse intensive and I got RSI. Shortly after GPC was withdrawn in DTE as they didn't trust us.

Axe "U Need 2 noe" and other nonsense in paper format, instead deploy on intranet for anyone sad enough to actually want to read it. YES

Same again for department magazines. YES, who reads them?

And for department public information leaflets. We had to do one 4 years ago. There was no quality assurance - two 'identical' sections had entirely different content when they should have been the same. No one took ownership and there was no annual or ever review for accuracy and currency.

1. Stop the wasteful 'annualrity' of defence spending. It's wasteful that we get 'late spends' where we have to get rid of £2M from failed RPC ventures just so that we get the money next year - the whole budgets for projects (esp Infra) needs looking at! Absolutely - the path to nowhere across the field on an airfield that was to close - Lyneham

and work done on airfield and units when they know they are going to close but can't because the Minister hasn't signed off on the closure so unions have not been informed.

2. Ditch all the unaffordable ceremonial crap such as Guards units and Royal Horse Arty - it's a bygone era; forget it lads - move on - we have not used horses in true battle for some years and do we ever see any of the supposed tourist income that it generates? Wasteful in these lean times. MMMM

3. Cull the Civil service and get rid of the 'hangers on' that just 'exist' because people are too crap to use the restoring efficiency programme. Yes, and disestablish uniformed gapped posts. If you did without you can do without.

4. Build bloody Barracks and SFA in Central London, on MoD land and stop the millions being wasted on SSSA and SSSFA - why sell off Chelsea Barracks when we could have built service accn there? Same with all the waste at Abbey Wood - buy back RAF Locking and build accommodation!!! LOL, fact logic and reason - different budgets, PFI etc etc

6. Stop all the Stn Execs having their own cars just to drive from the patch and back? I mean, come on?? Bike you lazy sods!!! I heard they were going to tax them as company cars. BTW, who washes and DIs them?

7. Sell off Defence Estates and rent the land back in some PFI -do away with all the admin faff and let some big company deal with all our Infra needs Yes

8. Amalgamate all MoD admin functions - we now have JPA so lets just have a joint admin corps / service - it would save millions in less bull$hit admin hierarchies!! Nah, never work, just p1ss evryone off

PS, redraw the front line, Oh forgot, they are.

Vin, you get my vote. I have a few of my own...

Serious question for those in the know: Under our "Code of Conduct", are we permitted to make suggestions outside the chain of command?

Nothing to stop us anonymously contributing I guess, just wonder where we stand officially before I jump in with both feet and a diving suit?

The Spams have a 'Fraud, Waste and Abuse' hotline across the US military - might even be a government scheme - and I've always thought something like this would have mileage, as well as a 'good ideas hotline' which bypasses the flawed thinking that rank equates directly to having the best ideas. Something broadly like the latter was circulated in about 2001 and ideas did seem to be pushed upwards.

I also agree entirely with financial longtermism as opposed to the annual panic budget holders seem to go through every March. Why a budget holder can't save up for a wanted item over several years is beyond me - perhaps the missing link is cash needs to be properly allocated as opposed to fully spent each FY.

For God sake NOOOOO!! Surely we have learned the lesson of selling off publicly owned property, that is an asset to the Nation, when we sold of all the MQs! In this route there only lies pain and huge cost to the military and the taxpayer for private profit.:ugh:

Totally agree. And whilst we are at it, why don't we build some apartment blocks on Govt land and rent them to all the MPs. No SSSA and SSFA to be rented at exorbitant London rental rates and no second homes for MPs at public expense and we could save millions per year.

In theory, we have such schemes. For example, there is a Fraud Hotline but it is manned by relatively junior staffs and as there are so many cases of fraud being condoned by senior staffs and Ministers they are rather toothless / scared to take action above their pay grade. In 1994 I suspected a company of fraud (triple billing and not delivering goods). I sought advice and was told I’d better make sure of my facts; that I should conduct a mini-investigation and collate a report. The upshot was that my report was accepted by both the company and MoD Plod and the monies were recovered (via credit notes). But I was severely bollocked for carrying out this initial investigation when it was not my job (apparently). That attitude would put a lot of people off. To his credit, my boss (1 Star) backed me up, but he was told to wind it in.

Similarly, we have had suggestion schemes, like MIDAS and GEMS. But, again, if you report waste the chances are that it is you who will catch it, because of the same attitudes (“waste is no concern of ours”). Any suggestion that saves significant sums makes them topple. I’ve seen many suggestions from procurers rejected on the grounds that we’re not allowed to make suggestions affecting our own area of expertise and, in any case, it is an offence to implement the regulations designed to prevent waste. Again, this deters people. Director Internal Audit issued a report in 1996 recommending these regulations be implemented, but it was rejected and continued waste condoned.

It is the ethos that must change. People who do their job efficiently should no longer be regarded as an “embarrassment to the Department”. It used to be a promotion board question (to the grade below the lowest grade in DE&S). “How would you save 10% on any avionics programme (without degrading capability)?” More than 10 seconds to reply and you haven’t been paying attention. Today, the correct answer (1. Implement the permanent LTC Instructions and 2. Conduct Requirement Scrutiny) is understood by a mere handful and no-one dare try it for fear of censure and ridicule.

Indie, CinC Strike, either Burridge or the one before, introduced a challenge team (at least one person). If you thought something could be done better, differently, or should not be done at all, then you could ring them and it would be investigated.

I did it a couple of times but things were so slow you never appreciated if anything happened and after a year - poof.

Then Sir Clive introduced the paperless office, but never the technology to support it. Supposed to save thousands in office furntiture and space.

Of course Parkinson's Law immediately kicked in and other work was created.

Then Rustication ............ that got the T&S bills up.

Perhaps a moritorium on change every time a new boss arrives.

Just putting their stamp on things costs money and we all know that 2 years later it'll change again. Plus every one knows a lot of the ideas don't work because they've already been done before.

Stop paying some benefits with money. Why can't the unemployed be paid with food/clothing vouchers ? These could be redeemed at any shop/supermarket but would not include tobacco, alcohol or electrical goods. If the unemployed wants to watch TV on a 42 " plasma then they will have to find work to earn the money.

I think the poster meant within the defence budget - nevertheless yours is an outstanding, and very progressive idea. I am amazed that it has not yet been muted by someone like Frank Fields for example.

Nah, been tried. They are just flogged off on the black market for beer, booze, fags or some other sin at below face value.

Same if you actually gave them out as tins of food or clothes; they would finish up on eBay.

Now if you introduced mass catering of good quality, non-fattening foods, then they would have to eat or go hungry. Do clothing like clothing stores: cheap unfashionable clothing on a one-for-one exchange basis.

Clothes could have a catchy little logo (competition entries for the logo prize
£1 each) such as Freebie Fashions or Coalition Casuals:}

Maybe even a Freebie 26 inch flat screen TV that only operates after 6pm.

Flat rate allowances used to be cost effective, but modern IT systems (when--they--work!!!) have rendered that argument redundant. You don't need to analyse it...just look at what big successful, profit-making companies do. They are experts at cost-effectiveness. Most big companies pay actuals input through a system like SAP.

As PN points out, you cannot incentivise employees to make money by saving on allowances without incurring a tax burden on the individual, which would swiftly become a monumental pain in backside.

PN

I would try it again, with all the modern security techniques imbedded.

TOFO,

There may be more secure ways for vouchers. Unfortunately there are people out there who are far cleverer than those at work who can circumvent the best security that money can buy.

Apart from the black market, vouchers could soon be counterfeited.

Had a thought on the unfashionable clothing, just realised that was a b0ll0cks idea. More of the public are wandering around in DPMs or fashion look-a-likes. At least the fashion for wearing NBC suits has died off, mainly because they have worn out.

Haha, good thread this.

So, it seems we are virtually powerless to get money-saving ideas "shoved up" the chain of command.

Therefore, I visited the spending challenge and sent off some ideas with the caveat " I wish to remain anonymous to my organization" placed in the text...

Whilst I completely agree with many of the above ideas. e.g. Allowances should become flat rate and completely simplified, I'm not sure that we'd be able to offer a large enough saving to warrant close attention at this stage. The shocking thing about the previous government's wanton overspend is the scale (25%) of savings that are needed right now. The coalition government have a couple of months to sort this out.

I think it may be big ticket purchase items, branches, fleets and stations that need considering at this stage or we will be fiddling while Rome burns.

If we, at the coalface, don't put forward ideas; savings will be forced upon us, and the solutions may not be entirely sensible.... ! At least we have been asked by the coalition. There couldn't possibly be a lethal cocktail of self-interest, protectionism and backstabbing going on in the higher echelons...

errr...these are my own opinions and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer!!

Cut-back on some 'Air-ships' in command..... We have far to many.

Close the Gym's.

Return to flat rate rates on det / deployment rather than crazy JPA system.

Allowance/T&S are always the easiest to hit and give the least painful (from an inventory POV) saving. That it is often nugatory to business and only temporary is always overlooked and have a big effect or moral and efficiency.

....

But we know it will a cut in the unsexy maintenance budget (no painting) and not the tiffy, CVS, JSF, Dii, T45, SSBN that are offered up for sacrifice.

No Air Marshal got on a board of directors for paint or invisible ground-source
heat pumps.

We need to kill off the peripheral hangers-on like Enviros who take our JSP, fiddle with it, populate it, then charge us a whole bundle of cash when we have to re-write what they did. Then we put the Environmental Management System on the shelf to gather dust for ever more as the Cover Your Acer that originally signed up for it has moved on to retirement.

Or the bye-law revue team moving so slowly that bases close as they put up their new signs.

PS, forgot, a retired airship did sign up to a ground source heat pump.

I think you'll find that the Guards units and RHA work bloody hard and spend a hell of a lot of time in Afgahistan, outside the wire. As superbly illustrated in a documentary about 'Trooping the Colour' a few weeks ago. Your statement might not go down too well with several of the unit who returned minus limbs

Some more points that I have submitted

Sign young aircrew up for 20-25 years and not pay £100,000 retenson bonus.

Allow NCO Pilots and Navs.

Get rid of flying pay if you elect to take a ground job or are not able to fly.

Reduce the number of deployable HQs, and EAWs that do not acually go anywhere.

Perhaps the 100 year experiment should end soon. Perhaps the RAF the worlds first independant Air Force should be the first to dispand.

Crack on

In the Nutloose party

1/ Benefits would be paid in full for the first two years, after that they would reduce by 50% per six monthly intervals until they got the hint to get off their arses and get a job! what ever it paid, it would then remove the I am not working for that out of the equation...

2/ They would also be required on their 2 years of full benefits to do 3 days community work ( they do need time to find employment as well) this would involve litter picking, road sweeping, graffiti removal etc..... you get the gist of it, failure to comply would result in item 1 being brought fwd to that date.

3/ Crimes involving theft, damage, "joyriding" vandalism would be costed and as with drug related crime where assets are seized from drug dealers, assets would be seized from the above to repay the damages caused, if assets do not add up to the cost involved, monies would be deducted at source from wages / benefits as per the CSA until as such time the cost has been refunded.....

4/ The trick of Illegal immigrants hiding their docs, therefore stopping deportation, they would be detained, an Island several miles off Scotland (15 would do) would be selected, these people would then be given basic tools to build a croft and crops seeds and an animal, such as a cow, sheep or goat, and would be settled on there and be left to get on with it until such time they decide to return home... NO benefits would be provided.

And while the Nutloose party are at it.

5/ The Human Rights laws would be rewritten to remove Illegal Immigrants, Prisoners etc.....

6/ The anti- terrorism one would be re written to remove some of the police powers, (arresting a schoolgirl out on a field trip with her school under anti terrorism laws for photographing the railway station they were visiting just brings the whole system down....)


:E

Gets my vote, even though I think 2 years on benefits is still too generous for some.

Maybe I could be deputy PM in a coalition? Call it the Nutschecked Alliance.

Agreed on that anotherthing - what I meant is the net effect of having to support that kind of thing on the rest of the Army - whilst they are doing that others will be covering training/ops etc - the front line manpower is vital and I just don't think we can afford all the ceremonial side any more. That also goes for service ceremonial dress. Ditch it and just have one set of uniform such as fatigues, combats whatever you wish to call it. While we are at it, ditch Super Lynx and just carry on using the newly upgraded Puma as your Battle Field lift capability and transfer that to the Army - The RAF concentrates on heavy lift via 1 a/c type - the Chinook.

Of course what they should really do is claim back all the bonuses paid to bankers last year that was effectively syphoned off (via QE) from the taxpayer and into their bank accounts via the stock market. Greatest Ponzi scheme ever - treat the cause of the problem not the symptom!

Bravery & sacrifice aside, all the ceremonial, heritage and public face stuff are what sets our armed forces apart from the rest. The benefits to national income through tourism, industry and national pride far outweigh their costs and should never disappear. Anyone advocating cuts to the Guards, Reds, BBMF and the like should focus more on these benefits and less on the £'s IMHO.

2. Ditch all the unaffordable ceremonial crap such as Guards units and Royal Horse Arty - it's a bygone era; forget it lads - move on - we have not used horses in true battle for some years and do we ever see any of the supposed tourist income that it generates? Wasteful in these lean times. mmm That sort of crap comment will quite rightly invite Army and Navy bods to reply. Ditch the BBMF forget it lads it s a bygone ere!!!

The forces need their public faces more than ever, not just marching on homecomings in desert fatigues. As much as Afghanistan should be high profile, the public should also be very aware of the other things we do, or it leads to ill-informed halfwits on radio phone ins declaring that we need troops and not navies or air forces.

How does £25,000 for 6 dog kennels grab you? For serving personnel to keep private pets in during the working day. Within the last 18 months, and I'm not joking.

Someone is also paying to put a gadget in white fleet vehicles which displays an amber or red light if you drive slightly 'dangerously' (eg, accelerate), with a 20 sec delay of course. I'm not opposed to road safety, but... how much does this sort of project cost? Headed up by an Army Major, and supported by travelling roadshow and leaflets explaining how the gadgets work (or not explaining, I should say - however, the helpful leaflet does spend a paragraph talking about human rights and the "right to light" - again, not joking - in a leaflet about driving techniques). Anyone at DE&S want to tell us how much DRIVES is costing?

I didn't know I had a right to light. I hope the PJHQ bunker is aware of this right.

Yep, that's exactly the cr@p that needs to go, ZM.

Did anyone see the PM mention the £2.4m 'peace pods' recently installed in the FO at PMQ's today? Astonishing. :ugh:

Would also like to say I'm a big fan of the ceremonial stuff. The Household Cavalry etc who put on these Trooping of the Colour events serve their time on ops like everyone else, and when they're at home...how useful are most operations-focussed units? They train like everyone else.

I've worked with them on ops, and the ceremonial duties are part of their intrinsic character, it is their means of instilling discipline and duty and teamwork in their troops - ever considered how easy it is to get a bunch of 18 year old inner city lads to stay up all night, every night for weeks bulling leather harnesses? Or how important team work is to coordinate the complex ceremonies. The immense sense of pride felt when they play an important part in such an event is part and parcel of what makes them a cohesive fighting unit in stressful combat. I don't suppose parading horses is a significantly more costly an activity than driving around Salisbury plains in tanks or IFVs or building tipods with pine-poles.

I know we're broke, but any civilized country needs to retain a little bit of heritage. Get rid of govt-sponsored arts programmes before BBMF or cavalry. The Reds now - what are they for? Last time I checked we hadn't been short of pilot applicants since forever. Jehovah!

My answers in red...

Please elaborate on this allegation. Kennels for working dogs, whether explosive sniffers, drug dogs or basic wooly alligators are entirely justifiable, but for private pets??

Generally there is nothing in the UK Armef Forces left to 'cut'. So all this robbing Peter to pay Paul internecine cr@p needs to stop. Of course we should still have ceremonial duties outside Buck House and the Andrew should still spread British influence and pink gin around the world with their cockersPs, just as we taxpayers are still happy to pay for the BBMF and the Reds.

Expensive modernist oil paintings in the mad MoD-box are most certainly inappropriate, however.

Yes, private pets. :eek: Money from 'quality of life' budget.

Precisely where are these pooch palaces to be built?

Name and shame!!

Hopefully the lurking journos will have a field day with this one....:hmm:

We could save a fortune by taking the Puma out of service early.....

Vev, only went to page 2 to say that - foiled!! the big 4 hey???

I say get a proper contractor for SLA, apparently £60k plus for one SLA bedspace!!!!!!!!!!!! Vev???

Hard to ditch 'Super Lynx' when the MoD isn't buying it.

Exactly.....the MOD already has Super Lynx so its a bit too late for that.

But why do we need a Puma HC Mk 2...? Lets bin that project.... Withdraw the Puma Mk 1 from Service and maintain the Merlin and Chinook. If the RAF were to keep Merlin and Chinook then why bother with a Puma?


I do think that the Wildcat project is looking very iffy though....we should save the money andf upgreade the existing aircraft to the Mk9a standard....

Theprior,

+1.

The government are looking at outsourcing to open source, if anyone has used openBSD, redhat etc or the like, many OS's out there provide software with better security and UI than windoze.

Oh, the servers are free too. Agree with the Ped Flt idea.

And use cash saved there to contract the gym out to Fitness First or the like. Let them sell limited numbers of membership to Joe Public too.

The non-Public gym at Coningsby worked very well. Lots of people were prepeared to pay to use the facilities depsite the free gym palace nearby - wonder why?