BBMF & Arrows
 

All
Sorry for invading your space, civi here...

I have allways been a huge proponent of BBMF and the arrows.

However, it looks as though a large axe is just around the corner.

I would love to see both parties survive and florish.

However you guys are "in the know" and I wondered what you think.

Thanks for your thoughts............

Both will survive for vary reasons:-

RAFAT is still a great PR/Recruitment tool with links to industry including some corporate sponsorship.

BBMF is a 'museum without walls' and remains a tribute to the tens of thousands of young airman and support staff who perished during the Second World War. Last estimates put the total annual cost of BBMF at only £3M, most of which is regained through insurance costs paid by venue organisers.

If we really think that chopping both is going to magically fix the hole in the defence budget we are sorely mistaken - both outfits fulfill important roles.

Although if I had a choice then the Reds would go - BBMF cost peanuts and are a permanent reminder of sacrifices made.

"Lest we Forget"

I totally agree.

...but the BBMF is very much in-house whilst the Reds support the drive for defence exports sales.

As someone the Ministry stated recently, nothing is sacred.

Would it not be better to display the Typhoon then?

Would it be more expensive to have (say) a four-ship Typhoon display team, than the current Hawk setup?

BBMF will never be chopped.

A natural breakpoint for the Reds would be at the end of the Hawk life although I believe they have sufficient airframes for some time yet.

The survival of both is dependant on understanding the value of things and not just their cost

I have more faith in our new government in having a social conscience to this

I was speaking to an old n' bold CT on the 'Dead Sparrows' at Akrotiri a few weeks back and he was pretty certain that once the Hawk runs out of hours then it's curtains for the display team.

The 'old and bold' may be talking sense, as once the Hawk goes, what would replace it, unless some one starts on it's replacement soon, but saying that, with the reductions being mooted, maybe there will not be enough frames to display and train so perhaps they will have to combine flights, train the U/T pilots on the way to and from the display sites with the main man taking over for the event !!!:eek:

'BBMF Never Chopped' ! I wouldn't count on it!

The allocation of a support C130 as a high priority always used to astound me more than the cost of the Reds themselves, especially as many airshows would pay a lot for the latter. I seem to remember a C17 was allocated in support of at least one fairly lengthy overseas jolly and the use of such a scarce AT asset is far more scandalous than the actual cost. I've also seen a brass band flown on a C130 to Cyprus on the same day SF failed to get a C130 for a qualifying para jump, so the cash side is the least of our worries...

The Hawk trainer replacement is the Hawk 128. The issue is the cost of the128.

Your training solution should not be needed as they train in the closed season.

As for the Reds I am sure there will be a few options on the table from keeping as is to reducing the number of aircraft in the display team, perhaps even changing the aircraft to a cheaper version (running costs), dare I say a turbo prop trainer.

As someone pointed out early it will be down to cost vs. value. :ugh:

I would have thought the obvous answer would be to eventually re-equip the Red's with the 128 Hawk, still a good export earner...

Warships do a lot of export work on overseas visits, not quite sure what the Army do, must be something positive beyond encouraging Kalashnikov sales... ( Joke, great respect ).

Even better if the Reds could have Hawk 200 single seaters, which would also be useful to the RAF, but I've met serving light blue pilots who don't even know such an aircraft exists - and other fairly high ranking who were begging for it -, and it ain't gonna happen, besides, no rides for groundcrew ( important ) or banana republic types ( could be handled by BAES ).

As for any mention of binning the BBMF ( whose cost is more than covered by comfy chairs and plasma telly's for civil serpents ) - I would be one of very many getting hold of a gun or at least a bat with a nail through it and striding towards Downing Street !

Get rid of the AEF way before either of these two!

[QUOTE]Get rid of the AEF way before either of these two/QUOTE]

I heard recently that as a result of the Swansea accident, the maximum age to fly will become 55. Anyone else heard that rumour?

The reds are not getting the 128. Much more difficult to service meaning they would need a larger fleet in order to guarantee displays. Having spent several years at Scampton sipping beer with the guys, I'm confident that the Reds will be disbanded once the current fleet is lifed. 2018 is the number in the air. Ties in nicely with the 100th anniversary of the RAF.

Huge shame really as the annual running cost is vey low at £5-6M

That would be the £5-6m that could be spent on better kit...Maybe get rid of the ancient Anvis goggles we are forced to wear.... and get some new ones....


Notwithstanding that, the £5-6m PA figure is rubbish. The capitation rates just don't add up to make £5-6m.

It costs Circa £9m just to operate the aircraft.

How many hours as the "tincano" got!!!!!

Much as I would hate to see the demise of the 'Reds' in their present form, two options spring to mind:
1. More sponsorship from British industry.
2. Take a leaf out of the RAAF book and have the 'Reds' as a secondary role for Vachchlley Instructors.
Option 1 would preserve the important overseas displays.
Option 2 has been done before, vide 'Yellowjacks.'

Please forgive my ignorance,but would the Euro fighter not be a good replacement for the hawks at the end of there life?
While I appriciate they are dearer to to buy and run. But the "reds" have always been marketed as a good sales pitch for the UK and BAe, is it not a good combination to use maybe earlier Tranche's so the Tranche 3 versions could be purchesed??
And when out of display season they revert to Uk defense or Op's ???
Once again appoliges if a stupid idea .