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-   -   Lightning & F-15 photo? (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/414203-lightning-f-15-photo.html)

Ewan Whosearmy 4th May 2010 12:24

Lightning & F-15 photo?
 
Any of you Lightning mates have a picture of the F-15 and the Lightning in formation, or at least in the same frame?

Ex-Eagle pilot needs said image to illustrate an article for Aviation Classics mag.

TIA.

Lightning Mate 4th May 2010 13:08

Somewhat trick that one.

This is the best I can come up with:

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/u...plusF15750.jpg

Ewan Whosearmy 4th May 2010 14:43

Thanks, LM!

Do you know who owns the copyright to this image?

Also, did you ever BFM the Eagle? Any observations on how best to beat it?

barnstormer1968 4th May 2010 14:54

EW

There was a thread a while back, where a dual between RAF Lightnings and USAF F15's was recounted. The story went along the lines of the RAF pilots being old and bold types, and totally thrashing the younger USAF pilots with skilled/underhand manoeuvres.

But, once the USAF pilots landed, they were given advice by more time served pilots, and the F15's never lost again.

It was close to that anyway.....Maybe you can search for it, or the OP can re post it here.

Lightning Mate 4th May 2010 15:04


Do you know who owns the copyright to this image?
It's in the public domain as "courtesy BAe" and not "copyright BAe", so whilst it's possible that they own the copyright, I don't think so.

I'll check for you if you wish.

Ewan Whosearmy 4th May 2010 15:04

Thanks, Barnstormer. Will do a search...

Ewan Whosearmy 4th May 2010 15:06

LM

If you would, that would be great. It'll end up in print if it is PD, but if it's BAe, then permission must be sought.

Cheers

jonesy101 4th May 2010 15:58

Fantastic Photo... but it generates a question.

My father (ex No1 PTS) once got a ride in a lightning says it was simply the most amazing thing he did in the RAF, although HALO jumps came aclose 2nd!...He always decribes the experience as gear up, nose up to vertical and accelerate whilst vertical.

I know this is a party trick the F-15 shares.....

...so now my question! .. Gear off to say 40000ft... who'd get there first !

Pontius Navigator 4th May 2010 17:08

Try and contact Mike Sweeney BAE Systems who was their PR man (IIRC). Any attribution is always good publicity for them.

Canadian Break 4th May 2010 17:44

IIRC there is an excellent sunset picture of 2 Lightnings and 2 F15s in the magazine that was sold at the Last Lightning Display at Binbrook. I'm sure someone here must have a copy - mine's in the UK so out of reach now I'm afraid.

Lightning Mate 4th May 2010 17:53


He always decribes the experience as gear up, nose up to vertical and accelerate whilst vertical.
Sorry to shatter the myth 101 - it's simply not true. In order to accelerate vertically, an aircraft must have enough thrust to overcome weight and (increasing) drag. The Lightning simply couldn't achieve it.

The only non-propeller aeroplane that I know which can do that is the Shuttle.

OK guys, challenge open......


Great pic, as usual, but don't you have one of the Lightning in the cousin's six?
Sorry Charlie, I don't mate.

Speed Twelve 4th May 2010 18:37

cough Harrier...cough ;)

EyesFront 4th May 2010 19:21

When the brand new F15 was breaking climb to height records, I remember an advert in Flight pointing out that the F15 was faster from brakes off to 70,000' than a Saturn V moon-shot...

I believe the Saturn V drew ahead after that... !

Spiro 4th May 2010 19:29

Lightning mate - Challenge accepted, from usaf website....

F-22

Power Plant: Two Pratt & Whitney F119-PW-100 turbofan engines with afterburners and two-dimensional thrust vectoring nozzles.
Thrust: 35,000-pound class (each engine) 70000 total

Weight: 43,340 pounds (19,700 kilograms)
Maximum Takeoff Weight: 83,500 pounds (38,000 kilograms)
Fuel Capacity: Internal: 18,000 pounds

With max fuel it weighs 61340lbs vs thrust of 70000lbs, hey presto it has thrust/weight ratio of better than 1:1. Pretty sure F-15, Typhoon, su-27/31 etc will all accelerate in the vertical as well :ok:

GeeRam 4th May 2010 21:21


IIRC there is an excellent sunset picture of 2 Lightnings and 2 F15s in the magazine that was sold at the Last Lightning Display at Binbrook. I'm sure someone here must have a copy - mine's in the UK so out of reach now I'm afraid.
And I no longer know where mine is either.....I did have a quick look around the bookshelf but to no avail.

Ewan Whosearmy,
Ian Black may have some unpublished Lightning and F-15 shots he took (he certainly has published some Lightning and F-16 shots in his Lightning books) and IB is on the directory here index so you could try and contact him via Ed Durham.

MATELO 4th May 2010 23:25

Courtesy of Wiki...

The Lightning possessed a remarkable climb rate, and its time to reach an altitude, or time-to-climb, was exceptional. To achieve this short time-to-climb, Lightnings employed a particular climb profile, which was more shallow in angle compared to that demonstrated at air shows. The Lightning was famous for its ability to rapidly rotate at the end of the runway and climb almost vertically away, but although this near-vertical climb was impressive, it did not yield the best time to altitude, nor was it a demonstration of the ability to sustain a vertical climb. When Lightning pilots performed their trademark tail-stand, they were actually trading airspeed for altitude. The Lightnings would seemingly zoom “out of sight,” accelerating away, when in fact they would slow to near stall before pushing over into level flight. During the optimum time-to-climb profile, the maximum climb angle never exceeded 30 deg.
The Lightning’s optimum climb profile began with an afterburner takeoff. Immediately after takeoff, the landing gear would be retracted and the nose held down to allow rapid acceleration to 430 KIAS, then a climb initiated and stabilized at 450 KIAS. At this IAS, the climb rate would be constant at approximately 20,000 ft/min.,[5][nb 9] The Lightning would reach Mach 0.87 at 13,000 ft.[nb 10] The pilot would then maintain Mach 0.87 until the tropopause, 36,000 ft. on a standard day. The climb rate would decrease during the constant-Mach portion of the profile.[nb 11] If further climb were required, the Lightning would accelerate to supersonic speed at the tropopause prior to resuming the climb at supersonic speed.[7][5]
A Lighting flying its optimum climb profile would reach 36,000 ft less than 3 minutes after brake release.[5] This was—and is—impressive performance. That the Lightning never reached the climb rates of some of its contemporaries during this profile was not important; that it reached altitude quickly, was.
The official ceiling was a secret to the general public and low security RAF documents simply stated 60,000+ ft (18 000+ m), although it was well known within the RAF to be capable of much greater heights; the official maximum altitude mainly being determined by cockpit pressurisation reliability and safety. In September 1962 Fighter Command organized a series of trial supersonic overland interceptions of Lockheed U-2As, temporarily based at RAF Upper Heyford to monitor resumed Soviet nuclear tests, at heights of around 60,000-65,000 ft.[22][23] The trials took place in two stages, the second series consisting of 14 interceptions, including four successful and four abortive ones at 65,000.[24] The late Brian Carroll, a former RAF Lightning pilot and ex-Lightning Chief Examiner, reported taking a Lightning F.53 up to 87,300 feet (26 600 m) over Saudi Arabia at which level "Earth curvature was visible and the sky was quite dark" but control-wise it was "on a knife edge".[25]
In 1984, during a major NATO exercise, Flt Lt Mike Hale intercepted an American U-2 at a height which they had previously considered safe from interception. Records show that Hale climbed to 88,000 ft (26,800 m) in his Lightning F.3 XR749. This was not sustained level flight, but in a ballistic climb or a zoom climb, in which the pilot takes the aircraft to top speed and then puts the aircraft into a climb, trading speed for altitude. The normal service ceiling for this aircraft was 60,000 feet in level flight. Hale also participated in time-to-height and acceleration trials against F-104 Starfighters from Aalborg. He reports that the Lightnings won all races easily with the exception of the low level supersonic acceleration, which was a "dead heat".[26]
Carroll reports in a side-by-side comparison of the Lightning and the F-15C Eagle (which he also flew) that "acceleration in both was impressive, you have all seen the Lightning leap away once brakes are released, the Eagle was almost as good, and climb speed was rapidly achieved. Takeoff roll is between 2,000 and 3,000 ft [600 to 900 m], depending upon military or maximum afterburner-powered takeoff. The Lightning was quicker off the ground, reaching 50 ft [15 m] height in a horizontal distance of 1,630 feet [500m]".
In British Airways trials in April 1985, Concorde was offered as a target to NATO fighters including F-15s, F-16s, F-14s, Mirages, F-104s - but only Lightning XR749, flown by Mike Hale and described by him as "a very hot ship, even for a Lightning", managed to overtake Concorde on a stern conversion intercept.[26] The XR749 now resides at the entrance of Score Group plc's gas turbine testing and servicing facility in Peterhead, Scotland.
Despite its acceleration, altitude and top speed, the Lightning found itself outclassed by newer fighters in terms of radar, avionics, weapons load, range, and air-to-air capability. More of a problem was the obsolete avionics and weapons fit, particularly the 30 mile (very short) range 1950s radar sets: the avionics were never upgraded in RAF service since Lightnings were always supposedly just about to be replaced by something better.
Roland Beamont (Lightning development-programme chief test pilot), after flying most of the 2nd Generation Century series US fighters of that era, made it clear that in his opinion, nothing at that time had the inherent stability and control and docile handling characteristics of the P 1 series prototypes and Lightning derivatives throughout the full flight envelope. Its turn performance and buffet boundaries were well in advance of anything known to him, the Mirage III included.[27] This remained so right up until the next generation of fighter/interceptors was developed worldwide, with underbelly intakes and straked leading edges, or canards.
English Electric Lightning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Tricorn 5th May 2010 08:15

Power to weight ratio comment
 
I remember chatting to a USAF chap (mid 70s?) shortly after the F16 started flying and he was boasting that it was the first jet where the thrust exceeded the weight of the aircraft. I pointed out the Harrier and he said, "Sure that's a good aircraft as well". I highlighted that as it could take off vertically, the thrust must exceed the weight of the aircraft. He paused for a second and then walked off. Didn't see him again!!

cornish-stormrider 5th May 2010 10:37

88,000 feet. Damn that is one badass M**********r of a machine.

And I don't mind about swearing this one time.
88,000 feet. **** the bed, thats impressive.
Pop - I'll be taking a language ban then?? Cooler one week??

Bet that scared the U2 driver, but would the SR71 get there as well?

GeeRam 5th May 2010 10:48


Originally Posted by cornish-stormrider
but would the SR71 get there as well?

:ok:

SR-71 holds a level flight altitude record of a bit over 85,000ft.

pmills575 5th May 2010 11:00

Interesting to see the radar range quoted as 30 miles. When I worked on AI23B/C we had a 60 mile range and later D versions increased that to 80 miles. Still it is wiki, you can't expect it all to be right!

PM575

lightningmate 5th May 2010 17:25

EW,

I have a Chris Allen piccie hung on my wall that has a single Lightning (me) with 2 Eagles in echelon port with a sunset background. Sortie flown 1 Dec 1986.

The last location I have for Chris was Training Captain with Cathay. My piccie is too large to scan with anything I have available.

lm

Unregisteredmaltair 5th May 2010 17:27

Re your " Shattered Myth"...says who? The vertical climb was the Lightning's show stopper....I have vivid memories of Lightnings on APC detachments at RAF Luqa Malta..doing just that especially the T5 which was much lighter than the F6. As every aviation buff knows the only drawbacks the Lightning had was lack of endurance and armaments pack...power/speed were not.

As for Lightning versus F15 I did see a photo of an F!5 as seen through a Lightning gun sight .

GeeRam 5th May 2010 18:31


Originally Posted by lightningmate
I have a Chris Allen piccie hung on my wall that has a single Lightning (me) with 2 Eagles in echelon port with a sunset background. Sortie flown 1 Dec 1986.

The last location I have for Chris was Training Captain with Cathay.

That's appropiate LM, given our PM of last week :ok:

Lima Juliet 5th May 2010 20:17

Lightning and F-15...easy...:ok:

http://www.richard-seaman.com/Aircra...r/83ES9732.JPG

OFBSLF 5th May 2010 20:59

Lovely pic, Leon.

Pontius Navigator 5th May 2010 22:34

I seem to recall that the 'official' ceiling for the Lightning, based on its oxygen system, was 65,000 ft with the pilot wearing a Taylor partial pressure helmet. Unlike the full space suit for the SR71 etc, it only had a hard top and sealed front piece. The rear was only a soft leather (IIRC).

soddim 5th May 2010 22:49

Wiki is not far off in quoting radar range - the range scale went further but a 30-mile pick-up was quite exceptional and had to be a large radar signature target.

Pontius is quite right - anybody taking a Lightning above 65000feet with a normal RAF safety equipment AEA was on a wing and a prayer in the event of loss of pressurisation.

safetypee 5th May 2010 23:54

Wiki is a little unfair in the dismissal of the Lightning’s 1950’s radar etc.
Considering that the weapons system originated from late 1940s research (as did the aerodynamics) it had remarkable capability. There was not much room for a high-power radar, only a small radar dish, but the processing logic and anti-jam capabilities were first rate. Also, remember that all of the computing was analogue, resistors, capacitors and gear wheels – and they kept working at 6g!
The missiles similarly had exceptional capability considering their vintage. There are many stories of the US attempting to ‘keep’ a Firestreak homing head. The warhead was not a puny 9 lb hand grenade as in the early AIM 9s – it was a 65 lb version, and the fusing had brains to ‘seek-out’ the flight deck. Red Top and its advanced computing improved on this and provided a modest head-on capability – probably to address a specific threat from Blinder / Kitchen.
The aircraft / system kill-ratio, the overall reliability, was impressive and better than the early performance of Phantom / Sidewinder / AIM 7.

IIRC one of the U2 intercepts, 74,000 ft, involved the aircraft in a near miss; the Lightning radar failed (a pressurization weakness above 64,000 ?) thus the missile intercept was completed with the ‘gun’-sight. At a late stage, the pilot realized that this was a pure pursuit course – aiming directly at the target, which together with reduced pitch control effectiveness at very high altitude / speeds resulted in a close pass – Lightning inverted and pulling hard downwards.

Comparisons should be restricted to like v like in the era. After flying a French Mirage pilot on an ‘evaluation’ exchange – we flew the Mirage 3B in return, he asked why the Lightning required two engines as it in his opinion one engine provided most of the required low and medium level performance. In latter years, the Mirage was a better ‘system’, but this was 10 years after the Lightning had been in service and many years of failed support for developments – Oh for a T55 with 4 fuselage mounted missiles, two under wing AIM 9K, and guns.

Brian Abraham 6th May 2010 02:18


My piccie is too large to scan with anything I have available
lightningmate, more than one way to skin a cat, take a snap of the photo with your digital camera and put up here. You will be surprised by the quality, and I'm sure others besides myself would love the opportunity to drool.

GreenKnight121 6th May 2010 07:57

Indeed... my oldest brother & I went to my parents' in March for a couple of weeks (Father, 77, had had emergency heart surgery... 5 bypasses... and needed help the first little while - he is now walking nearly a kilometer, twice a day, better than he has in years).

While we were there, by brother decided to copy the old slide (transparency) pictures my father had taken in the 1950s/60s.

He had purchased a "slide scanner" for his computer, but it was bollocks... it turned all the pics blueish and dark.

So, we dug out the projector & screen, set them up in the basement, played with the settings on his $400 Canon digital camera, and started snapping shots of the projected film.

They came out perfectly... as if they were the originals!

I've used my $100 Nikon digital to snap shots of paintings & photo prints, and they come out fine... as long as you remove any glass/plastic covers and set up your lighting to avoid glare & reflections.

Ewan Whosearmy 6th May 2010 09:11

Lightningmate, PN and CB, many thanks for your help. Will pursue these leads...

Lightning Mate 6th May 2010 11:52

I have used the photography technique before with much success.
However, if I may offer further advice:

Use a long telephoto lens, take it in bright outdoor light, and with the lens orthogonal to the picture.

Lightning Mate (the upper case one!)

GeeRam 6th May 2010 12:59

Ooops......

Just noticed my 'senior blonde' moment with contributer's id's and a bizarre co-incidence :oh:

Appologies to LM and lm :\

lightningmate 6th May 2010 20:51

LM

Aha! Orthogonality eh - you must have been an IRE :)

lm

Lightning Mate 7th May 2010 07:23

lightningmate,


Aha! Orthogonality eh - you must have been an IRE
Yep, but not on the Lightning, the Jaguar.

John Botwood 7th May 2010 08:45

In 1983? the RAAF celebrated their 75th Anniversary with an airshow at RAAF Point Cook, Victoria.

The controlled airspace was a 3nm radius of Laverton - some 1.5nms northwest. Two Lightnings came from Adelaide with a Victor tanker. The Victor stayed 100nms to the West and the Lightnings joined for their display. On the run in, one lost a donk and decided to continue with the sortie.

They were issued onwards clearance as "Direct Edinburgh (Field) FL350 report leaving FL300". They called display complete and 30 secs late' reported left FL300' - they were within 2-3 nms from the field.

Pretty to watch.

JohnB

GeeRam 7th May 2010 12:59


Originally Posted by John Botwood
In 1983? the RAAF celebrated their 75th Anniversary with an airshow at RAAF Point Cook, Victoria.

The controlled airspace was a 3nm radius of Laverton - some 1.5nms northwest. Two Lightnings came from Adelaide with a Victor tanker. The Victor stayed 100nms to the West and the Lightnings joined for their display. On the run in, one lost a donk and decided to continue with the sortie.

I think you'll find it was a lot earlier than 1983 ;)

My guess it would have been the 50th Anniversary show on 18th April 1971, which I think was the last time RAF Lightnings were seen in Australia?
As by September 1971, 74 Sqn had disbanded and left RAF Tenagh, delivering it's Lightnings to 56 Sqn in Cyprus.

Link below to a photo of 3 x 74 Sqn F.6's and a Victor K.1 taken at the RAAF 50th Anniversary show on 18th April 1971.

MyAviation.net - Aviation Photo Gallery

Trim Stab 8th May 2010 03:56

Spiro:


F-22

Power Plant: Two Pratt & Whitney F119-PW-100 turbofan engines with afterburners and two-dimensional thrust vectoring nozzles.
Thrust: 35,000-pound class (each engine) 70000 total

Weight: 43,340 pounds (19,700 kilograms)
Maximum Takeoff Weight: 83,500 pounds (38,000 kilograms)
Fuel Capacity: Internal: 18,000 pounds

With max fuel it weighs 61340lbs vs thrust of 70000lbs, hey presto it has thrust/weight ratio of better than 1:1. Pretty sure F-15, Typhoon, su-27/31 etc will all accelerate in the vertical as well http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...ies/thumbs.gif
The calculation is not quite as simple as that. The aircraft would have to an airspeed sufficient for control authority, so there would be induced drag to add into the calculation. Also, the maximum thrust figure is likely to be at the airspeed where the compressor is at its most efficient - which might be quite a high airspeed, when the airframe drag would be significant.

Likewise, the Harrier can clearly accelerate vertically when in VTOL mode, but not necessarily when in conventional mode.

I am not saying categorically that either aircraft cannot do it - just that the simplistic arguments presented do not prove that they can.

John Botwood 11th May 2010 01:22

Thanks GeeRam
 
Thank you for the date correction - I should have used a larger ?
I was in the RAAF(R) at the time and should have remembered better. Apart from that, the facts still stand. The Victor holding at FL250 came up as the Lightnings left him inbound with - "We're just just leaving 250 and dropping down lower to have a look at the countryside. His controller (ex RAAF pilot) just roared "Oh no you are not!!" and that seemed to correct the situation.

JohnB

curvedsky 15th Jul 2010 15:37


RE #18 & earlier

88,000 feet.

Bet that scared the U2 driver..........
What a load of twaddle to write that the U-2 was intercepted at 88,000' by a BAC Lightning!

Check the aerodynamic possibilities for both aircraft.

Perhaps the Lightning pilot donned his 'anorak space suit' as he passed 50,000'? Then somehow he was able to convert the remnants of his energy climb from say Mach 2 at 36,000' into a plausible flying speed (IAS) at 88,000' for the Lightning? :D


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