I feel for you lot - I really do - its tough isn't it? Just step back and try to see the bigger picture will you?

RTAs kill more people in the MoD than die on ops - every year.

MT is some massive cost to the MoD every year to pay for the damage, accidents and compensation. I'll post up the figures when I get them.

Something that costs so little (in the big scheme of costs) that could modify behavior and perhaps save lives is a good thing.

Not got the latest to hand but:

The estimated losses due to these accidents, as a 5 year average, is £132.21m.

So - is a road safety initiative is about helping drivers to drive better a bad thing?

Sort of puts the £5m pa cost into perspective. You can almost hear the chuntering from the crusty old armchairs - "Yeah but no but but yeah but"!

There are always alternatives to using MT .... :E

Ah yes, damn lies & statistics. I would hazard that £132M pa in RTAs is not down to the sqn car doing 80 on the M4 but more to do with Challenger tanks falling off low loaders or 432s going through garden fences.

Still, churn out a big shiny powerpoint presentation and some big, meaningless numbers and bob's yer uncle. Trebles, as the Eye would say, all round.
:hmm:

(PS. if I'm wrong and we are in fact wiping out nearly 9000 £15000 cars a year then could I suggest the £5M would be better spent on driving lessons?)

During 2008 a total of 5,634 global on-duty Road traffic Accidents (RTAs) were reported to the IMPACT Data Cell at DE&S Andover.

Out of interest, were these only RTA's, or is this a mix of RTA's and RTC's, as this would make a huge difference to what is made from the figure you have put up. Oh, does this figure only relate to on road accidents too, or are off roads figures part of the overall sum?

I only ask, as I remember in one day on one operation, and in only one squadron, 20 accidental damages occured! None were on a public road, and only one involved two vehicles (both were MOD/army owned).
It's odd, but when driving off road and in the dark with no lights, little bumps can happen. The cost is huge, and to show lights would be tactically stupid, or possibly lethal!

It would also be worth remembering some some MOD vehicles are very old, and can go wrong quite often and quite badly, and having a black box would make no difference to that at all.

The overall cost seems high, but then the MOD must rank as one of the worlds largest wasters of money, with it costing approx £150 to change a lightbulb (I could do it for about £7 inc labour)!

Just my two penneth

Bet you couldn't. You'd need a working at heights certificate, insurance (employees) insurance (public liability) insurance (in case you break the airfield), insurance (vehicle), envelope, brown (bung for the use of), ISO 9001 certification, manuals, statements, equal ops monitoring, maternity pay, paternity pay, equal ops training, an HR department to monitor all the training, a Risk department to manage all the insurances, a Finance Director to stuff the brown envelope, a sales guy to hand over the brown envelope, a marketing guy to decide to buy the box at Ascot/Wimbledon/Glyndebourne, and then a guy to drive the van, take the lamp from the box and do the job.

It's not as simple as it looks, changing bulbs :E

Airborne Artist
Absolutely bloody priceless! Why should Britain tremble with humour like that.......... what do you mean.......... 'it's not humour?'
Regards
CB

Anyhow, back to the thread... Do these trackers have any form of download ability for me to size up the competition?

My personal record for a generic 'MT'-spec silver coloured Astra diesel estate is 116mph, can anyone trump that?

Note to all handwringing lefty liberals, this was on an unrestricted autobahn and not outside a school...

Forget the speed, more importantly, did the tyres last the day? :E

There are cases of people being identified as 'red' on a number of occations and loosing the use of MoD cars - true!!!!

That would save me sitting behind the wheel of a naff vehicle for hours in slow moving traffic, with Radio 3 programmed into every preset. I could just have a driver, an ipod, and a snooze.

StopStart - I'd bet (having been responsible for road safety in at least 6 different countries) that most of the accidents and most of the cost attributable was in white fleet and on the public highway. Seeing as the MoD insures itself, the cost is rather higher than you and your own motor - compensation etc.

barnstormer - argue the toss all you want - most of the vehicles are fairly modern and most of the older specialist vehicles are driven by professional drivers who have more training and higher consequences if it goes wrong. Most of those older vehicles are not the problem - the white fleet is.

I will, however, go to the far end of a fart and try to get more numbers for you doubters tomorrow. You're the same crowd who can always do the job better than me regardless - but I will maintain my demure demeanor and humour you once more.

AA

I still think I can do it for that price, as that is part of one of my jobs already,
so I already have the qualifications for that. Oddly, it nearly is just as simple as
changing a bulb (in the real, non jobsworth world).

The sad part (and something you left out of your monologue) is that all the things
you mention are only needed as a fee would be charged.......If I were to do it
for free, as you would in your own home, then none of those would be needed.

It is the same if I were to work on gas. Even though I am trained on gas work,
and well qualified on it, and have many years experience too, I am not deemed
to be safe with gas (but only if I charge) until I pay a private body (who give me
no training, but will give me some stickers).

You also forgot I would need a PRS licence, as I would want to listen to my
radio as I changed the bulb!

Oh, and to be registered with data protection, as my records would be on PC!

If this were a joke, it would be very funny.............You know, some folks who
say we live in rip off Britain may be on to something:}

126mph in similar vehicle. Just to say I'd matched Mallard.
(One for you BEagle, now that you are outed) :E

Mallard - yes indeed!

Actually I'm with Mr C Hinecap on this issue. The number of idiots who think that they can treat MT vehicles as some type of racing car is ridiculous. Then the next poor sod who gets to use the thing wonders why it rattles and shakes....

Although MT Flt are not entirely blameless. I recall the dreadful Chevette estate with a broken drivers seat I was once given for a day long journey to Dorset, the Mini I was given for a trip to London which had no rear view mirror ("It's on demand, Sir!") and the utterly dreadful Cavalier I was given to collect 2 important Americans from London Airport which had violent steering shake at anything more than 50 on the M4.

Given the choice, I always asked to use my own car rather than having to use something from MT which had probably been caned by someone else.

I'm not surprised that there's so much MT carnage - and to identify and punish the abusers seems eminently sensible.

Mind how you go!

Percentage of total accidents by vehicle type - these are the headlines - all other types are down in the >2% category. These are from the 2008 report:

Motorcycle 0.48%
Car Saloons 36.12%
Mini Buses 10.51%
Motor Coaches 3.19%
Vans 11.63%
TUM/TUL 10.95%
TUMHD 0.46%
4 tonne 3.83%
8 tonne 0.50%
Other Cargo Vehicles 8.96%

So you can see the majority of accidents are on the road.

From the same report, for the conspiracy theorists:

An Electronic Driver Assistance Programme will begin in 2009 which aims to use onboard feedback technology in 5000 mainly White Fleet MOD vehicles
to offer drivers visual real-time information about their driving performance. The telemetric type equipment will capture information from the vehicle about braking, cornering, acceleration and speed. This will then instantly analyse the data to determine a risk level of the particular driving action, or the overall journey. Transport Managers will be able to view this information via a website allowing managers to consider if any action is required for driver improvement. This road safety initiative is about helping drivers to drive better and is not a ‘big brother’ programme.

Anyone else want to pick holes?

Mr C Hinecap.

I think I may be missing something here, but thanks for the compliment..As I am
one of the professional drivers you talk of, and did drive many specialist
vehicles, as well as instruct on bike, car and HGV licences:ok:

While your figures do show that a large amount of accidents are in the white fleet,
which are driven to beyond the capability of some of their drivers, I still cannot
see how your figures show if the accidents were RTC's or RTA's and this does
make a massive difference, as you will know as a road safety type!*

If you still contend that most MOD vehicles are modern, then I presume you are
only talking about the RAF, and not the army/RN too.

*As a common example, a reported accident (RTA in loose terms) could be a
landrover puncturing its fuel tank on a hidden rock while driving cross country in
the dark with no lights on. Or the CRV(T) which rolls over a road side cliff in
FRY (and is later repaired)
This can be impossible to avoid, and does cost money to repair/recover. This
is very different to some do-nut who takes a fleet car, and smacks into the back
of someone at 90mph on a motorway (RTC)

As I said, just my two penneth. :)

The figures quoted are from the 'Total Collisions' column and not from any other source. I don't know why you are going down this rabbit hole.

The cost to MoD for 3rd Party iability Claims was, in 2008, £11.79m - boulders don't claim. The cost of repair to MoD vehicles in the same year was £3.26m. There were over 400 injuries On Duty that year due to the accidents.
The language is now Accidents and Incidents. I've dragged all I can from the Road Safety Report and I'm sure most are convinced that most accidents take place on the public highway. £5m total to monitor and perhaps modify driving behaviour has to be a good investment.

Hi, thanks for the reply.

I was questioning your figures, as you referred to accidents at first, but in the post above refer to collisions (obviously accidents and collisions can be very different things with RTC being the new buzz word in civvy life. An incident can be something else (or the same thing:})). I have not queried the fitting of trackers, but was only interested in your figures. I guess as you are coming from an RAF point of view, you do not see where I was going, as the RAF aren't really known for going off road, or front line driving in the same way as other services/arms do.

Thank you for your outdated view of the RAF and your insight into my background. The ACSSUs have a fairly field-orientated view and given I currently work in the Land environment, having spent my last tour in greens, I have a fair feel for the non-tarmac world you are hinting at. Given quite a bit of my training was at DST Leconfield, with the Army, I'm more Joint than many in Light Blue. I know where you were going, but it is small cheese these days compared to road miles.