B2 and derivatives ie T4, T17 had 1, others had 3, PR9 had AVPIN. Sorry no pic

Correct - B.2 had 1. Our B.2s (A84-125 and A84-307) here in Oz were converted to T.21 trainers and retained what we called the "Avon Mk 1" with single cartridge. Similarly, our early B.20s were spec'd on the B.2 and had the single-cartridge Avon Mk 1 (aircraft A84-201 to A84-227).

The later B.20 production (A84-228 to A84-248) were spec'd on the B.6 and had the "Avon Mk 109" engine with the triple cartridge breech.

On a related matter, I saw B.20 A84-242 in the paint shop at RAAF Amberley on Tuesday. It was being primed in readiness for its Vietnam camouflage scheme for display in the base's Aircraft Heritage Centre.

Cartridges
 

The cartridges were bigger than might be expected and made of brass. The quality was excellent in the early days but fell off towards the end. You will often see them being sold in antiques shops and booter. Most people think they are cannon shell but the base is marked "Crt Elec St" which gives a clue there is a range of ops so something No 9 mK 2 for example.

Cartridges or cartridges depending on the type were held in a fitting at the front centre of the intake fronted by a large knurled knob suitable for hand operation. The knob had a button in the centre. To undo the fitting bash the knob in firmly and unscrew the fitting about five turns. The fitting and attached cartridge may now be withdrawn and a new cartridge fitted to the claws. Replace is revers. We normally carried a rack of six cartridges in the rear hatch.

We were fond of borrowing the cartidges which could be cut down to excllent ash trays or fitted with a handle and plated to make a beer mug. Mostly we kept the cartridges which had special significance such as after an accident or the last one on retirment. No one seemed to mind where they went, there was no obvious auditing or recording.

Tinribs is correct – there was no auditing from what I can remember and a ‘useful’ commodity they were too!

I remember staging through Nice and being told that it could take an age to get fuel.

So using my ‘initiative’ I stood in front of the jet with arms held high holding the 2 used cartridges – instant BP truck!! :ok:

A starter breach failure away from home sorted out the men from the boys. The way round it was to start one engine using the good breach. Get the nav to stand in front of the running engine, unscrew the breach and then screw in the duff one.

He would then screw the good breach with a fresh cart into the other engine and Robert's your father's brother!

Letting go of the breach at the moment critique involved a LOT of paperwork.

Take it your all aware the PR9 at Kemble is about to fly again soon.


Canberra to fly at Kemble


..

Start up
 

Wadd HC and others:


Some footage here of Canberra start ups. My Dad, Eric (Started on the OCU at Bassingborne in 54 finsished on the OCU at Wyton before going to RAE) can be seen struggling with his ear defenders. He is now deaf!

We have several carts at home. the older ones are certainly better made and better brass. I spent many hours with Brasso/ wadpol.

One of my last EWAU design jobs was the bigger AvPIN tank cover for the 9. correcting a FRA Bournmouth cock up where the leading edge cover interfered with the cap.

I had seen some conflicting info on the web and knew this would be the right place to clear it up :D


Think I read that the early ones only had 2 exhaust for the starter and 3 on the later marks which is one of the ways to spot the difference on start up if needed.

I was on the B(I)8's at Wildenrath, the starter held 3 cartridges and had 3 exhausts. We often had to do single engine starts and we left the engine covers on the other engine. Most of our engine covers had 3 holes which lined up with the starter exhausts. I did it once, starting the LH (No1)engine and looking at the ground crew and feeling for the start button pressed the wrong one. No damage done, the engine covers didn't get sucked in.

Oldlae, you have taken me back in time! Dad was the admin NCO on 88 Sqdn and I played football for the sqdn. I have put a number of photos of
XH134 at Kemble on to the HAA ( Historic Aircraft Association ) website.

There are some first-hand accounts of Canberra flying (PR7, TT18/B2/T4) during the 1970s (XIII Sqn and 7 Sqn) in Winged Warriors - The Cold War from the Cockpit. (See www.wingedwarriors.co.uk)

B(i)8 16 Squadron Laarbruch
 

I wonder if anybody here could help me with a question concerning the very beginning of Canberras on Laarbruch being equipped with US nuclear bombs.
When did the QRA-business start?
Must have been in 1960. Any exact date?

There is a report by Grp Cpt Wheeler about a C-130 bringing the first nuclear weapons to Laarbruch.
It says: 1960.

Interesting story, by the way:

Hmmm,

I have to wonder about this reported incident. I know of an RAF Albert hitting a tree, and doing some damage, at Wildenrath. Never heard of the "injured Albert" shipping nukes. Maybe it was one of the "cousins" Alberts? Whatever I've just finished reading Mike Brooks, Bucket of Sunshine, a great read and no mention of such an incident. I bet someone on the Mil forum will know something though :ok:

Bucket of Sunshine
 

I've read the "Bucket of Sunshine" as well. Great book with a lot of interesting information.
But Mike Brooke arrived at Laarbruch sometime mid 1964.
Is "Albert" the nickname for the Hercules C-130? Never heard it before.

95i,

Yes. 'Albert' is the nickname of the C -130. Rather like the nick name 'Cranberry' for the Canberra. Although the latter is a name coined very late in the Canberra's life, since I was on Canberras for 16 years in the 60s and 70s and we never called it a Cranberry.

Albert is, of course, the shortened version. The full name is Fat Albert.

I was on Canberras from late '60s to mid '70s, never heard the term 'Cranberry' until I joined the RAF in 1979.
Which was also the first time I heard the F-4 called the 'Toom', or "Tomb'.

In acknowledging that 'Fat Albert' is a nickname adopted in the RAF for the C-130, I believe that the name may have been first used for the C-5A within USAF's Military Airlift Command. It was certainly already in being when the first aircraft arrived at Travis AFB in 1970, with HQ MAC trying hard, but fruitlessly, to stamp it out. (And I don't recall ever hearing anyone at that time use the term for a 130.)

The aircraft in the alleged incident would have been a USAF C-130, the RAF Hercules entered service in the late 60s (The mention of the C-82 points to it being one of the very early USAF Hercules).

"Bucket of Sunshine!
 

Just finished it on my kindle this afternoon, very entertaining read.

Moved onto "Warthog" about the A-10s in GW1, not as yet entertaining, but will give it a chance.

C5 was known as Fat Albert by all during NATO EX Hellenic Express, 1971 IIRC. I worked in Ops. Great time had by all, work or play......

Re the starter cartridges: I've still got a live one somewhere. No accounting done at all. They were very useful for;

1. Setting fire to pianos.
2. Extracting the cordite from within to then put inside shoe polish tins and place gently on the barbecue.
3. Starting Canberras.

Re the Machrihanish Escape Tunnel. We began the dig out of 'Stalagluft Machrihanish' by cutting back the turf with our curved survival knives and continued with some spoons nicked from the Mess.

Happy days in a knackered old bomber.

Bernoulli

Bernoulli,

Thank you. Now my colleagues might believe me when I tell them about Tom, Dick and Harry and the escape from Machrihanish. I'd forgotten all about cordite in boot polish tins. I do recall the 40th Anniversary and police arriving just after a piano had been ignited with a starter cart. When the police asked the officer who was playing the burning piano to accompany him to the guard room he quickly quipped back with "I'm sorry I don't know that one". Great days.

I seem to recall that it was a 2 week detachment for most of us. The Canberras were there pulling Rushton targets for the Rapiers on Benbecula. Normally we'd do this task out of Kinloss but it was closed for runway resurfacing and so the three TT18s were exiled to Machrihanish.

Nissen huts and camp beds in the middle of nowhere. We felt like POWs. And what must a British Officer do if imprisoned? He (all aircrew were 'he' back then) must attempt to escape.

So we hatched a plot, formed a Committee, nicked some spoons and started digging. Most of the time between sorties was spent working on the tunnel. We each had a sacrificial flying suit for the purpose and we went so far as to fill our pockets with the dry sandy soil and drizzle it down our trouser legs as we strolled about on the grass. Various lengths of wood were obtained and the tunnel was partially lined. Shallow trays were fashioned to support the turf at one end and the soil and wheat in the field at the other end.

Finally the evening of the mass breakout came. I seem to recall all six of us climbing out of the tunnel into this field of young wheat, carefully replacing the lid and setting off to Machrihanish village. Some place was found and our 'escape' was celebrated with gusto. After far too many pints of gusto we shambled off home. Staggering through the dunes on the shore and golf course we all got split up. The airfield perimeter on that side of the base was, shall we say, loosely patrolled, and really wasn't much of an obstacle. Not so on the other side facing the public road: 10ft concrete posts and chain link wire. Gav Nichol was found by the RAF Police trying to climb the wire convinced that he was climbing into the base. He'd pottered across the entire airfield and technical site without noticing a thing. Good effort!

Not sure if the tunnel was used again. It was eventually rumbled when the farmer came to harvest his crop and put a wheel through the rather flimsy lid. Looking down into the hole he was convinced that someone was trying to break into the base and being a good citizen he alerted the authorities. Que a large WRAF Admin Office sent to investigate. Stern words and the boys were told to stop being silly and fill the tunnel up again PDQ.

Looking back through my log book I think the above all took place 23 Jun - 04 Jul 1986. Trev Jarvis, Tom Barbour, Nick Petts, Jeff Coker, Kev Baldwin. Caveat.....it's quite a while ago.

The flying on 100Sqn was not the most thrilling but we did have fun.

Cheers

Bernoulli

Flying the Canberra
 

Tom Barbour was one of my QFIs on basic in 1989. Had a habit of climbing things and hanging off them to surprise us poor studes!

I have been spending an interesting few weeks transferring all my flight time to an electronic logbook - for reasons that are no longer apparent to me - and I just finished the part relating to The Canberra Conversion Course at Cottesmore in early 1974 before going to 100 Sqn at West Raynham, I got there via Gnats, Vulcans and four years on Bloodhounds, also at West Raynham.

Lot of good stuff here, I was trying to remember the icing let down procedure, but having read this thread, the stark horror all returns. There is a special place in Hell reserved for QFI's that relished in pulling a good engine at rotate, some 45kts below Vmca as I recall. I also vividly remember having to redo my FHT as my asym work wasn't up to scratch.. The log book records 13 consecutive EFATO's and EFOF's in 90 minutes of thigh trembling cold sweat. Being of limited stature, full rudder was a stretch, but I swear my leg developed an emergency extension capability, or perhaps it was the lifts in my boots. The subsequent trip back to the flight office was accomplished on all fours...

Great aeroplane to fly, some great memories of 100 Sqn, and my last posting before joining the mass exodus in 1975 - it was that or another ground tour, possibly (if I really behaved myself) a co-pilot slot in the Vulcan again... Since the PSS drone at MoD who gave me this glad tiding wouldn't look me in the eye, I figured the writing was on the wall.

Canberra VMCA
 

As an ex Canberra driver (and a QFI) surely no-one is ever going to throttle an engine at a speed which is not controllable and VMCA -45 k seems suicidal. I seem to remember the minimum safe speed for a Canberra was 140 knots. If an engine failed below that speed, then the drill was to close the other throttle and land ahead and accept the barrier or whatever !!

140 knots, full rudder and some bank towards the live engine, drilled into my head at Bassingbourn ! Kept me alive on the two engine failures I did have !

Or have I really lost my marbles ??

Yes, Vmca -45 isn't credible. When I did my C to I on 'berras, we went to 5 or 6000 ft to demo an engine failure below Vmca and it was rather impressive.

To answer the ME vs FJ question - I still have the posting notice from 100Sqn ("PLT ME") to 13(PR) Sqn ("PLT FJ") to prove I was an FJ pilot - just!

Agreed Vmca - 45, by definition, does not work. Yet that Vmca was very different as between an half-full T4 with no tip-tanks and the B2 with full tip-tanks.

Flying off Bassingbourn's 2000 yards, you had to know what you were doing (with a full B15 out of Labuan, there was a brief period when it did not matter what you knew).

The notorious instructor, in my time as a student, was John Stanley. You knew he would cut the throttle early enough to make the full and correct response essential - never mind Vmca. John traded in terror, but he must have made his mind up that you were not at all likely to boot the wrong rudder. He has to have got that right every time.

That is interesting rlsbutler - I wonder how many T4 QFIs guessed wrong and dived the wrong way, and we will never know.

I can think of at least one where it went disastrous, and one (No QFI involved) where the nav left the pilots to it, but unfortunately died.

Well Gentlemen - it was all nearly 40 years ago and the passage of time may well have changed my perception into a perceived reality.... and exactly when that finger snuck out and hooked itself around the throttle is lost to the mists of time.... Suffice to say, my logbook is littered with EFATO's and EFOF's and with an inside leg measurement of 28", the result from my point of view was a knee-trembler of the worst kind... I always felt sorry for the poor bugger in the back whose sole contribution - as I recall - was to read a checklist... I salute their memory.

The Canberra was fun to fly, and a challenge - an icing letdown always added spice to the day - and closing the throttle on the good engine at 600ft (and 145kts..?), dumping flap then waiting the 16-19 seconds for the barn door effect that would hopefully coincide with the threshold.... That exercise did lead to the highlight of my short career - a PD to Binbrook with a SE landing in a B2 where the wind wasn't quite as I expected, resulting in a loud bang shortly after touchdown and an abrupt heading change towards the weeds. I swear I was still doing 60kts when the Nav appeared and started wrestling with the door, he thankfully waited until the cursing had stopped before it was wrenched out of his hands and a swarm of firemen appeared to rescue us. I achieved a lifetime ambition that day - a ride in a shiny red fire engine - however it only delivered me to the Boss of the Lightning squadron whose precious aeroplanes it was my misfortune to have spread across the countryside while we were waiting for a spare tire... I don't think I have ever seen anyone quite so upset and not have a coronary on the spot. I probably shouldn't have laughed.

At least they let me fly it home - and an appointment with the T4 again...

I can still remember as though it was yesterday (and it was 1966) roaring across the fens at 200 ft doing crit speeds with Robin Rose in the right hand seat and him looking oh so relaxed. Not sure the nav was so relaxed!

Now would that be the same John Stanley who later gravitated to the Vulcan and eventually the GSU? I heard it said (apocryphally I'm sure) that on a GSU ride with him the first engine would fail as you turned onto the taxiway and it all went downhill from there!

YS

"The notorious instructor, in my time as a student, was John Stanley. You knew he would cut the throttle early enough to make the full and correct response essential - never mind Vmca. John traded in terror, but he must have made his mind up that you were not at all likely to boot the wrong rudder. He has to have got that right every time."

As an ex QFI I can't imagine that any instructor would trust to luck that his stude would'nt put in the wrong rudder. I am sure he would have decided which engine to fail, would have braced the "wrong" rudder and been ready to immediately feed in the correct rudder if the stude failed to do it. Messing around with the rudder on a Canberra following (even simulated) engine failure at low height and speed, was potentially disastrous.

The Canberra was a delight on 2, a big JP, but after flying two Vs, the VC10 and several Boeings, my conclusion is that on one engine it was the worst of the lot, B. dangerous in fact ! On the other hand something like the B767 even when fully loaded was quite straightforward on one engine even after a V1 cut .

I was in upstate NY this summer visiting the Wings of Eagles Discovery Centre, which has a great collection of aeroplanes and some of the most knowledgeable museum docents I've ever come across. They have a early US B2, sadly deteriorating in a field outside, but it has the familiar bubble canopy of the Brit version although different engines. Info here
I worked for Flight Safety in Houston, TX in the late 80's and NASA at nearby Ellington AFB were operating two or three long wing WB-57F's, 122ft wingspan, high altitude recce (82,000 ft), on mostly high altitude sampling missions. They needed a recurrent ground school, so as the token Brit I got to write, and then teach it to the NASA pilots. The aeroplane bears almost no similarity to anything I've flown, but it was fascinating to talk to the pilots about the problems flying that beast - maximum bank angle 3 degrees on final, and it wouldn't stop flying in ground effect... I shudder to think what a V1 cut would be like in that, I suspect they just don't do it.

The aeroplane has been overshadowed by the U2, but in reality is a very useful high altitude vehicle, with the benefit of a two man crew and 6,000lb payload rather than one pilot and about 200lbs. The aeroplane is still in service, in fact one was brought out of mothballs this year and put in service last August. They operate in low viz, mostly unmarked paint schemes, and operate for "A Government Agency" in Afghanistan.

Wiki info here

Didn't remember his name, but I remember the kerfuffle - lots of witnesses, Buffer Zone infringement, etc, etc, and a sense-of-humour failure somewhere. Didn't move fast enough and for my pains got lumbered with the Summary of Evidence.

Binbrook - To what incident are you referring....?

Sorry Maxchord - it was Sharpend's tale about the Canberra at Garmisch (spring 1969?) which this very new boy has just come across. The Rhine bridges were not mentioned in the Summary I'm happy to say - unlike 'Skiers' no-one had been 'unwise' enough to enter them in the Authorisation Book!

Well, thanks for that - I was beginning to worry about visiting the Homeland...