S-92 to deliver UK SAR-H service
 

As expected, the CHC/Thales team has been named preferred bidder for SAR-H. Contract completion expected later this year - if the Strategic Defence Review doesn't get involved presumably!

Team Soteria wins UK's SAR-H deal with proven S-92

no no NO..., we want a unproven airframe, preferably not yet flown or even on a drawing board,
a 10+ year development overrun with a 3x cost overspend.

THEN cancel and buy S92.

have the fools learned nothing:(

More detail on the Rotorheads forum. :ok:

I wonder why they've ditched Prestwick and went for Glasgow. I would have thought Prestwick would have offered them better operational space and lower prices.

Is it going to Glasgow Prestwick or Glasgow International?

Maybe because Glasgow Prestwick is owned by a New Zealand Company where as Glasgow international is owned by BAA (Which is owned by some Spanish Bloke and his Canadian Mate)

It's going to Glasgow International (BBC News - HMS Gannet to lose search and rescue operations), they get to do pretty much whatever they want to at Prestwick so I'm slightly gob smacked that they've decided to ditch it.

What Navy Base? Gannet SAR flight is a conglomerate of about 6 portakabins glued together. Hardly a Navy base.






Sikorsky S92 Helicopter. The S92A is providing reliable service internationally in the oil and gas industry and Search and Rescue with the Maritime and Coastguard Agency (MCA) on Shetland and the Isle of Lewis in Northern Scotland. The helicopter has a cruising speed of 145 knots, with a radius of operation in excess of 260 nautical miles. In comparison with the current SAR Sea King helicopters, the new aircraft is approximately 30 per cent faster and has approximately 70 nautical miles greater radius of operation. The cabin that is over 1.7 metres high,has a large door on the starboard side and a ramp at the rear which will allow easy access for casualties and hospital care equipment such as incubators. The SAR-H S92A has a fully equipped purpose built paramedic station including piped mains oxygen and an electrical power circuit within the cabin that allows immediate life-saving care to be administered day and night.


Only midgets need apply

Won't they struggle to see over the coaming; or will they have yellow booster cushions?

CG

Surely the booster cushions will be orange, to match the new corporate livery:E

Lets not start having mixed equipment already.
Plus, think of the benefits.......We could also have a fleet of midget submarines to help in the rescues, with no need for extra crews!
And, maybe we could re engine the choppers with midget gems.:E

Still, that's enough small talk for now, must get back to work.

I don't understand the move from Prestwick to Glasgow either.
I presume that the majority of call-outs are to the west of Prestwick.
True,the airports are only 30 miles apart but in bad weather it could seriously affect response times.

SAR-H
 

Its not about the lives of people any more, Its all about short term cost cutting! They will use the excuse that the S-92 is faster, just like their excuse for sending Boulmer and Chivenor day only! Its a faster aircraft! Or might it be because they realise that they cant possibly provide the same quality service they get now for the price of the contract. Remember Soteria has to make a profit out of this too, otherwise its a pointless exercise for them!!

having tried to get from Glasgow Intnl to Prestwick in bad weather, it is not for the faint-hearted...

But wait... who's to say they need to go west from Prestwick at all? With CHC in the running for winning the Irish SAR contract, due to be announced v. soon, maybe there's been a deal....

It will be interesting to see how it performs in the mountains. Where I live in south of France, the Securité Civile were given EC-145s to replace their old Ecureils. The speed of the EC-145 is great for maritime rescue, but in the mountains the high disk-loading is a real handicap in the snow because of the snowstorm it kicks up and avalanches it sets off.

S92
 

Ref the ramp giving access to the cabin, the last S92 I saw had a bulkhead between the baggage bay, which was what the ramp accessed,and the main cabin. Are the SAR ones different?

I suspect that once Chivenor & Boulmer have been down-graded to 12 hour status in 2012 ,then there will be no aircraft based at either location ,instead I think that one cab will be flown in daily from another location . As in Chivenors case , the powers that be say that during night-time rescues the area can be easily reached from either Valley , Culdrose or Portland ! Tell that to the relatives of anyone who has only minutes to survive in the cold waters of the Bristol Channel .

:hmm::hmm::mad:

Isn't portland day only too? I think it is and will remain that way!

On BBC Radio Devon today it said that Portland was one of the 3 bases that would cover the Chivenor area at night , that's the BEEB for you .:ugh:

Im sure that when the ministers statement cane out, the three twelve hour flights were going to be Portland, Chiv and Boulmer! I may be wrong but if it is true that leaves a massive hole in the south west! How they can justify that, i do not know but obviously the money saving is more important than a robust SAR coverage. Another question to ask is weather or not the aircraft will be available for the essential med transfers they currently spend a good amount of time performing? With the reduced night time coverage, will they be able to allow an aircraft out of the area to take a time critical patient who is in need of specialist care?

I can't see that the new contractor will be available for medivac flights as I assume they will be purely SAR dedicated unless some additional agreement or contract is taken out with individual NHS Ambulance services. However , if the medivac or casevac flight involves a road traffic accident then I would assume that payment for the flight might have to be claimed from an individuals Motor Insurance Policy , this is of course my own personal view .
:hmm:

As a comparason, hospital transfer flights by HEMS are chargeable by the operator to the hospital requesting the transfer

But HEMS response for RTCs is generally free (funded by the charity operating the aircraft)

This is one of the distinctions between HEMS and Air Ambulance

TOTALLY agree about the weather and everything else that would be wrong about a "real" international airport.

The real reason for the move is CASH !!! :oh: Prestwick want too much money from the new supplier. They have fleeced the Navy Cash Cow for too long, and are about to get sour milk!:ugh:

Confused now. I was always under the impression that HEMS was the generic term for the Air Ambulance services (charities)
Certainly in this part of the world the same airframe (G-HEMS at the moment) does both roles i.e. attends emergencies and is used for hospital transfers!

If Boulmer is going to be day only,are they thinking about trying to cover some of the east coast from Glasgow?

Given that the Lake District already sees assets from Boulmer, Valley & Prestwick I would suggest anything is possible.

(during the recent floods Chivenor even attended)

We have been done this route some time ago but essentially its like this (And this is my opinion and my definition as I can't remember what ATP 10D says but Thats the authoritive document)

A Rescue is a transfer of a person or persons from a hostile environment to a safe environment.
A CASEVAC is the transfer of an injured person from a safe environment to a medical facility.
A MEDEVAC is the transfer of an injured person from one medical facility to another medical facility.

Does it matter ? Yes indeed because in the UK it all depends on who pays for it.

Gannet SAR flight is the busiest SAR flight in the country. However, most of their jobs are CASEVACs or MEDEVACs. Now, that doesn't demean the fact that they are busy in any shape or form, thats just the way it is. But, does this contract (when it is written) allow for the new SAR aircraft to conduct CASEVAC and MEDEVAC ? i.e. if a lady is pregnant and she lives on the isle of Arran - is the new SAR cab going to scramble from Glasgow (in $hitty Weather - and fly under the Bridge) to go and transfer her to a hospital. At the moment the answer is yes. What will be the answer in 3 years time?

SAR Statistics
 

Make of this what you will.
Defence Analytical Services and Advice: Annual Military Search and Rescue Statistics

Sun

The Glasgow move can be seen as fairly reasonable. Most call-outs head up that way - and quite a significant amount of them have to go pick up docs from the SECC carpark anyway!

I'm almost in agreement. My issue with the move is purely social. The CO of HMS Gannet is a Lt Cdr WAFU. It is the only job in the RN where the CO is a Lt Cdr WAFU. CO Gannet SAR flight is probably one of the best jobs in the RN....certainly one of the best jobs a wafu can aspire to.

Gannet has no military accommodation and so all the boys live ashore on the Scambro scheme - Fab...a complete win.

Gannet SAR flight is unique in so much as they boys there have little if any secondary duties. They don't have Duties to do, No division (bar a small cadre). The local run ashore (Ayr) is pretty hoofing ....some good pubs.

In essence, Gannet SAR flight is one of the best jobs in the RN and sadly it is going. A shame....

But because HMS Gannet has another role.....will it be saved? How about we form a Squadron of Merlin.... Maybe we could call the new Squadron 819.... ????

"If Boulmer is going to be day only,are they thinking about trying to cover some of the east coast from Glasgow?"

Why not? Each unit cover jobs in the others "area" anyway. so why would it be any different - if the ARCC need some one they will surely task the nearest suitable asset. Prestwick have already been on the east coast and infact just off Boulmer in the past. Likewise Boulmer come over to the west coast if Prestwick are out of area.


" is the new SAR cab going to scramble from Glasgow (in $hitty Weather - and fly under the Bridge) to go and transfer her to a hospital. At the moment the answer is yes. What will be the answer in 3 years time? "

Why not (again)? why fly under the bridge when the S92 could climb out IFR then let down over the water?

Oi!
Lets have less of that Midget bashing!
Shame on you Charlie-Golf!!
lsh
:E

How sad for the local MPs. All they are concerned about with the move is the 'loss of jobs' and loss of business to the little corner shop nearby. Pull your heads out and look at the advantages of the proposed relocation - closer to 4 of the most commonly used hospitals (RAH, Southern General, Golden Jubilee & the Childrens one [forget the name of it]). Instead of Seaking boys coming out of Prestwick and gingerly navigating the A737 to get to the Southern General to pick up doctors then go on scene, the doctors can quickly drive to the new SAR base and get on with the other crews - and launch straight out. Screw your corner shop, thats just a matter of life.

The SAR-H programme is all about value for money over the 30 year contract -so where possible you don't spend money you don't need to if its not in the customer's requirements, or contract yourself into uncertainty which might lead to unexpected bills. Once the contract is signed- thats it for the 30 years! So if a base is forecast to be too expensive (particularly as compared to the other 11) - best you move down the road to no effect on SAR ops but immense improvement in cost of operation.

As for medevacs - yes they are in the requirement too...once in the publc domain people will be surprised just how detailed the requirements are and how demanding (rightly so) they are on the contractor. That said - as the air ambulance system improves further (perhaps in to night ops) than the requirement on the SAR-H service may reduce - we shall see. Remember too that the NHS/DofH pays the MoD/DfT for the Medevac service using SAR heloe (mostly at night) and has done for many years - so that will not change either.

As for Chiv and Boulmer on daylight only - the rescue stats for many years show a very limited need for night ops close to those bases compared with all the other (high risk) areas in the UK which are closer to the other 10 bases. Indeed most of the time the rescue provision is by our immensely capable RNLI (we have more lifeboats per coastal mile than any other nation on earth and they do 20 times more maritme rescues than the SAR helo service per annum)) and the coast guard cliff rescue teams, as well as ever increasing police and air ambulance assets. In a contracting game where value for money is all to the customer it is essential that "non essential" resources are not scoped into the contract which over 30 years would add considerably to the cost.....in a fixed price (inflation proofed) budget which although very large is not open ended. While I personally think HMG should have paid for a 24 hr service out of these places as a contingency but it looks as though this is not going to happen unless the incoming government is prepared to fund the SAR-H budget by the few percent more to make it so. Remember if it were to happen there would be a need for a few more aircrews, relevant spares holdings and probably at least 1 more aircraft....so it is in the multi million cost arena over 30 years).

What we also don't know yet is how many cabs will be in the total Soteria SAR-H S92 fleet -so that will indicate what flexibility there might be to generate additonal ac beyond the 12 that will be on nominal standby across the UK. I think most people will be impressed with the availabilty requirements placed on Soteria from its standby aircraft, and what penalties are in the contract to incentivise availability levels way above that previously achieved by single aircaft at each base. For years excellent military first standby aircraft availability has always relied on the use of 2 or sometimes 3 aircraft (or more in the RN's case!) at each base ....a much better ratio is achieveable with modern platforms operating under a EASA approved engineering regime. Watch this space.....

Cheers

Stop griping. You had all those years of being able to stand up (on a chair, if you needed to check a mag plug) in a Puma without banging yer 'ed.

CG:ok:

Quote:
'Gannet SAR flight is unique in so much as they boys there have little if any secondary duties. They don't have Duties to do, No division (bar a small cadre). The local run ashore (Ayr) is pretty hoofing ....some good pubs.

In essence, Gannet SAR flight is one of the best jobs in the RN and sadly it is going. A shame....'

Sounds a lot like the standard life for your average crab pilot!!!
Good to see that the grass will be maintained greener for the light blue!

Most, if not all Air Ambulance charities do both HEMS and AA work. The distinction is in the service provided and in the exemptions granted to a/c operating in these roles. HEMS is where the a/c is providing a medical service by air (paramedics and doctors to the scene and then transport out) whereas AA is just the transport part where the a/c becomes an ambulance with a rotor, frequently used for transfers and transport from remote areas where a land crew may not be able to extract the casualty in a timely fashion.

The difference is that if you are landing on a HEMS mission (life or limb saving) the you can land in a 2D site. If you are on AA then you can't. there are other differences as well but that is how I was taught to interpret the rules.

Air Ambulances doing transfers - does the charity get any money? I think the ambulance service does but not sure whether the charity does or not

It already does!

There is no bulkhead between the ramp and the cabin on the SAR aircraft.

Yes (up here certainly) subject to negotiation between the departure & arrival hospital as to which one pays

(I've heard a figure of £3k mentioned from here to the NE)

Any flight (including transfers, organ movement and carriage of medical staff) can be done as HEMS, where immediate and rapid transportation is essential. Anything else is "air ambulance" and is a normal public transport task.



Our local HEMS charity does not charge for any HEMS transfers (or 'air ambulance' transfers, if the casualty is resident in the funding area of the charity). 'Air ambulance' transfers of non residents to other parts of the country are charged by the charity.

It's interesting to note that since the announcement that Chivenor is going to a 12 hour service in 2012 the Devon AA has started a big campaign (supported by BBC Radio Devon) to raise funds to try & buy a new & faster Helo to replace the Bo105 that is based in north Devon , any connection there ?
If it's going to be a 12 hour daylight service only , what happens in winter when we perhaps have only 7 or 8 hours of daylight & in the summer we may have as much as 16 hours per day ?

:suspect::hmm: